The main events in human history

[kyser_soze]

I'm at the dog end of the day mate, forgive me.

But you say we have 'traces' recorded that represent us. Wow!! Is that our role in 'history'???

Unintentional? Again, not a lot for us mere mortals.

But as for the criminals, the books are full of them. They are history. And our newspapers are the precursor for the next batch of historical criminals.

Yes, the common man and woman gets the odd shout, but that's our lot. The history books, and the newspapers, are not in the slightest bit interested in those who did not thrust their egos into the limelight.

Nope, 'history' is just for criminals who get to lead nations.

Hmm, so I take it you've not read much modern history then - stuff culled from all sections of society, from the 'criminals' to the victims? The personal diaries of soldiers, w/c people, office workers...all of this is used and written about...hell, even when I was studying GCSE history (this would be 20 years ago) we spent more time studying about the people, rather than leaders and dates, if only as an exploration of subjective experience, conflicts of evidence, how to weigh the value of one source against another...

I mean fuck me, want to know where the history of ordinary people is happening now - reality TV, Jeremy Kyle and Oprah.

 

[weltweit]

This is a good list. You forgot Fire though! ...

Aha yes would not have gotten very far without fire !!

****

Walking on hind legs

First weapons

The development of agriculture in Mesopotamia around 6,000 years ago.

Ability to make Fire

The ages, Stone, Bronze, Iron etc

Invention of the wheel

Crusades, wars between religions.

Rise & fall of empires, Inca, Mongolian, Roman, Spanish, British,

Industrial revolution (dark satanic mills)

Someone discovers flight.

Invention of the Vincent Black Shadow 1,000cc V Twin motorcycle

WW1 & WW2

Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the ultimate weapon.

Moon Landing, "One small step for man ... "

Drinkable Yogurt products ..

***

How is that ?

 

[yield]

Awesome.
I'd add the edible contraceptive and cheese but that's just me like.

 

[gorski]

Yeah, we'll get very far with lists and no thinking allowed...

 

[Brainaddict]

Yeah, we'll get very far with lists and no thinking allowed...

*snaps a mindclamp over gorski's head to prevent freethinking*

 

[fela fan]

Hmm, so I take it you've not read much modern history then - stuff culled from all sections of society, from the 'criminals' to the victims? The personal diaries of soldiers, w/c people, office workers...all of this is used and written about...hell, even when I was studying GCSE history (this would be 20 years ago) we spent more time studying about the people, rather than leaders and dates, if only as an exploration of subjective experience, conflicts of evidence, how to weigh the value of one source against another...

I mean fuck me, want to know where the history of ordinary people is happening now - reality TV, Jeremy Kyle and Oprah.

I plead ignorance about history. It was so boring (well, the teacher was) i gave it up at school. Of course now i wish i'd had a better start in the subject.

I would still say that the main events in history come from ordinary people, not the criminals that led out nations to wars and empire building and the like.

As for the history in today's making, if that's what it is i'll have none of it thank you. But does that mean that in 100, 200 years from now they'll be watching footage of episodes of big brother and oprah and larry king in their history lessons rather than studying books??? Fuck, i'd be giving up history all over again...

 

[fela fan]

Surely the wheel counts as a significant turning point.

Edit required: Ahh, that's the trouble with lists, i didn't take it all in. Oh well. Let's say that i agree with this one.

 

[Yossarian]

But as for the criminals, the books are full of them. They are history. And our newspapers are the precursor for the next batch of historical criminals.

That's why I think it's important to record and learn about history - should those crimes just be forgotten?

History generally winds up repeating itself, but if there's even a microscopic chance that thoroughly recording history is going to prevent another asshole US president invading another country in another generation or two, then it's worth doing...

 

[kyser_soze]

As for the history in today's making, if that's what it is i'll have none of it thank you. But does that mean that in 100, 200 years from now they'll be watching footage of episodes of big brother and oprah and larry king in their history lessons rather than studying books??? Fuck, i'd be giving up history all over again...

So you think automatically that someone's diary is of more value than say a Trisha episode for a historian from 200 years hence looking at how we lived? I've always thought one of the big problems for future historians is going to be TMD - Too Much Data - in some areas, and not enough in others (for example, if you're a tech-historian you're pretty fucked if you want to establish the history of the digital camera if you're looking for actual models!)...and that's before you get to that virtual agglomeration of 2nd hand human experience that is the interweb...studying the etymology of 'pwnd'...

 

[fela fan]

That's why I think it's important to record and learn about history - should those crimes just be forgotten?

History generally winds up repeating itself, but if there's even a microscopic chance that thoroughly recording history is going to prevent another asshole US president invading another country in another generation or two, then it's worth doing...

Yes, history repeats itself because the ordinary people either forget the crimes of their leaders, or just end up accepting them under whatever guise. Or don't even see them.

An interesting question is why humans find it so easy to repeat mistakes. Or, perhaps, i should say societies.

The next US president who we regard as decent and non-criminal will be the one who follows the bastard who took the world to the edge, the abyss, the end.

Perhaps history keeps on repeating itself because it's just a record of those who attain power, and attaining power seems to lead the people who attain it into a set pattern of behaviour, across the ages, across the divides, and into deeply criminal actions.

And so the main events in human history belong to the ordinary people who invent things, or bring about peace and/or development in the face of the injustices being dealt out by the criminals in power...

 

[weltweit]

Yes, history repeats itself because the ordinary people either forget the crimes of their leaders, or just end up accepting them under whatever guise. Or don't even see them.

An interesting question is why humans find it so easy to repeat mistakes. Or, perhaps, i should say societies.

If you are talking about the rise and fall of civilisations or empires then yes human history is litterred with the same old thing, a civilisation becomes economically powerful and arms itself to protect itself from its neighbours, at some point it also decides that it can exert force on its neighbours or subsume them into the civilisation and expansion or war occurs. The empire is born and then it remains in power in the region or the world for a period of time.

All empires are transient, there is an inevitable rise and fall, what remains of the Mongol hordes? a quiet peaceful country called Mongolia, what remains of the Romans? a lot of archealogical remains in Rome and Italy. What remains of the British empire on which it was said that the sun never set? the commonwealth.

... Perhaps history keeps on repeating itself because it's just a record of those who attain power, and attaining power seems to lead the people who attain it into a set pattern of behaviour, across the ages, across the divides, and into deeply criminal actions.

The life of an empire is probably very similar down the ages. A period of development, of growth, a period of expansion, a period of stability with perhaps wars at the perifery, and then over extension, the empire is too big to manage, the disparate parts to distant to control, the number of other peoples included too hard to homogenise and the start of the death or decline of the empire.

And so the main events in human history belong to the ordinary people who invent things, or bring about peace and/or development in the face of the injustices being dealt out by the criminals in power...

Human history does show that humans are quite able to rise up and overthrow their leaders under many conditions. Think of all the countries that have had revolution to remove the privilidged from power over the rest of the population.

Then in some situations it is hard to see what choice the ordinary people have but to follow their leader into war. What choice did ordinary Germans have but to follow the lead of Adolf Hitler and go to war on his behalf? or could they have escaped the rule and the will of the nazi party? what choice did ordinary people in Great Britain have except to go into war in defence of the nation, following Winston Churchill?

 

[kyser_soze]

what remains of the Romans?

The Roman Catholic Church. Rome stands as probably the most successful empire in human history in terms of longevity.

 

[fela fan]

The Roman Catholic Church. Rome stands as probably the most successful empire in human history in terms of longevity.

But the british empire has been giving it a good run for its money, never mind that it's referred to nowadays as the american empire. Just a change in adjective really, all underpinned by language...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But the british empire has been giving it a good run for its money, never mind that it's referred to nowadays as the american empire. Just a change in adjective really, all underpinned by language...

You really haven't studied history, have you?

 

[kyser_soze]

But the british empire has been giving it a good run for its money, never mind that it's referred to nowadays as the american empire. Just a change in adjective really, all underpinned by language...

Ever hear the phrase 'Two nations divided by the same language'? The US hegemony has fuck all in common with the British Empire fela. And the Roman Empire is over 2000 years old...even the most optimistic reading of the idea of 'Empire' would put Britains at 500 years...

 

[weltweit]

The problem I have Fela Fan is your assertions that ordinary human history is what should be celebrated in this thread.

My issue is that ordinary humans just do not make history, it is the Ghengis Khans, the Adolf Hitlers, Joseph Stalins, Caligulas, Winston Churchills, Einsteins, Pankhursts, Ceasars, Henry VIIIs, Oliver Cromwells, members of the Manhatten Project, Marconi, etc etc the very unordinary people that they were. It is that, the "exceptional people" those "out of the ordinary" that actually make history.

 

[kyser_soze]

Both assertions are wrong, as is pointed out in the Marx quote - you can't divorce common folk OR leaders OR externalaities like economics and environment from studying history because they all factor in to Why Things Happen.

 

[fela fan]

The problem I have Fela Fan is your assertions that ordinary human history is what should be celebrated in this thread.

My issue is that ordinary humans just do not make history, it is the Ghengis Khans, the Adolf Hitlers, Joseph Stalins, Caligulas, Winston Churchills, Einsteins, Pankhursts, Ceasars, Henry VIIIs, Oliver Cromwells, members of the Manhatten Project, Marconi, etc etc the very unordinary people that they were. It is that, the "exceptional people" those "out of the ordinary" that actually make history.

You seem to entirely agree with me. The picture of history that you paint is the one that i understand to be the case, and accordingly the big criminals that they are that predominate the books and history records. My use of the word 'should' tried to point out what i actually would prefer history to be about. Ie, ordinary people, not those who in some way claim the ego-ridden title of 'unordinary'.

 

[fela fan]

Both assertions are wrong,

and accordingly maybe the lord buddha was a main event of history, for demonstrating the benefits of taking the middle path.

 

[gorski]

*snaps a mindclamp over gorski's head to prevent freethinking*

Jeeeez, Hegel speaks of Freedom as the innermost characteristic and need of Humanity and addresses how it develops, insists on Freedom for all, not just some [Orient, Ancient Greece, Rome, Feudalism] and not just in the eyes of God [Christianity] or on paper [various Declarations of Rights etc.] but on putting it to work, as it were, into practice, says "we're still working on it" - and what does he get? Loads of abuse and no arguments whatsoever against - presumably all of those who spat in his direction know what they are talking about?

As it was neatly said: the French [and American] Revolution got its best expression in German heads - from Kant to Hegel and then Marx and co. continued.

Again, the tricolour flag, grounding Modernity, needs to be taken seriously, i.e. all three colours, not just the only one [Freedom] left in by the bourgeoisie, convenietly forgetting the Brotherhood and Egality in line with their interests and against those it exploits and dominates.

We can easily live without the many tonnages of unneccessary plastics, also who knows how many horse powers under the hub and whatnot - but he is speaking of that which is essential for Humans to be Humans!

And that, apparently, is a bit much for many...

Gis' a yoghurt, then...

 

[dash_two]

The biological development of speech, and the technological developments of writing and printing.

 

[kyser_soze]

Gorski...bigging up Hegel in a quest for rigidly defined limits of doubt and uncertainty.

A pint if you're in Brixton and get the reference G

 

[gorski]

Cool, you're on!

Btw, Philosophically speaking: doubt and uncertainty = the advent of Modernity. So, melikes...

 

[8ball]

Fire
Wheel
Written language
Computers
Extinction

 

[kyser_soze]

Interesting that you picked 2 infromational related innovations there 8ball.

Also of interest...the wheel. There's a good account of it's development in Guns, Germs and Steel...a few big civilisations have manged without it for time apparently...

 

[8ball]

Interesting that you picked 2 infromational related innovations there 8ball.

Just what popped into mind.

Seems to be quite similar to what other people have said though less of an explicit military emphasis.

If I'd thought harder I'd probably have mentioned the Agricultural Revolution and the invention of trade instruments (money, markets, whatever trade index you choose etc.).

 

[kyser_soze]

Well I think that part of gorski's freedom is communication based - we've spent an awful amount of energy over history working on ever faster and more portable means of storing and sending information, and it's free flow seems to be a requirement of free peoples...

 

[8ball]

Interesting point.

I'm mostly thinking at a 'GCSE Geography' level, I'll admit.

 

[Lock&Light]

Surely the wheel counts as a significant turning point.

I like that, fela. It really made me laugh.

 

[fela fan]

Jeeeez, Hegel speaks of Freedom as the innermost characteristic and need of Humanity and addresses how it develops, insists on Freedom for all, not just some [Orient, Ancient Greece, Rome, Feudalism] and not just in the eyes of God [Christianity] or on paper [various Declarations of Rights etc.] but on putting it to work, as it were, into practice, says "we're still working on it" - and what does he get? Loads of abuse and no arguments whatsoever against - presumably all of those who spat in his direction know what they are talking about?

I like that description of freedom. It's very beautiful.