The legacy of Rosa Luxembourg?

[butchersapron]

No, I meant more balanced than the classical Marxist tradition

Bellofiore:

http://libcom.org/library/candle-burning-both-ends-rosa-luxemburg-critique-political-economy

She is a large part of that classical marxist tradition (see that articles emphasis on her vanguardism for example). In english at least. Bellofiore is here drawing on a wider range of her work than is available in English or in full editions - her major economic works have never been translated in full for example - only parts of far larger works.

 

[articul8]

Ok but her economic work hasn't really rated by the likes of Bukharin or Hilferding? Or even Lenin to some extent. That's what I mean about people like Bellofiore having a higher opinion of her contribution than many previous critics.

 

[butchersapron]

Ok but her economic work hasn't really rated by the likes of Bukharin or Hilferding? Or even Lenin to some extent. That's what I mean about people like Bellofiore having a higher opinion of her contribution than many previous critics.

Oh it was rated, that's why they went to such sustained lengths to answer it, comment on it, challenge it. Huge amounts of words over many many years.

 

[ayatollah]

I think at one time Rosa was just about every Swpies name for their dog or cat.I don't recall the IS claiming to be Luxemburgist although she and others including Serge were all claimed as part of quite an eclectic revolutionary tradition before the Bolshevisation of the IS/SWP tradition.

This is quite true (apart from the dog/cat naming thing ) when I joined the IS in 1971, despite Cliff's emerging "turn to Leninism" it took quite a while for this to "kick in" against the much broader philosophical scope of the IS's then "open house" attitude to Marxist/Left inspirational thinkers-- which is why for a while the IS was able to punch far above its (miniscule) weight in the UK political scene and either recruit or have as fellow travellers a range of socialist intellectuals which today's Left can only dream about. At that time no-one would have suggested a complete lightweight like Owen Jones as the "primary Left intellectual of the age " ! As we all now know however this Is "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach to socialist theory was as much based on long term principal for Cliff, as opposed to short term tactics, as Mao's own commitment to theoretical diversity was !

One of the gobsmacking things about Rosa Luxemburg was the influence that she as a woman had , in an era of profound male chauvinism , on the Left as much as any other political tendancy . Only a handful of women (Goldman, Kollantai...) had a similar influence in Left circles. As a Pole, she was pretty contemptuous/dismissive of Polish Nationalism, which in so many ways is politically correct, but given the massive role of Polish nationalism in breaking the post 1917 westward advance of the Russian Revolution, the significance of Polish nationalism seems to have been a blind spot for Luxemburg.

 

[The Black Hand]

Got to say there was a massive gap between her politics and her economics - in fact, not so much of a gap as a glaring contradiction. A politics largely based on the capabilities of the working class to organise around and for its own needs, and one that saw them as passive reflectors of the objective condtions and the llaws of the capitlalists model. This came out in her inconsistent attitude towards 'the party question', and tragicaly in the spartacist uprising where she and the other leaders were totally oumanpuverd and knew themselves to be, but felt they had to take the decision to carry on anyway. Actually, i'd guess her long running refual to break fully with the old leaders post-1914 was another symptom of this as well.

Modern influence? Well David harvery makes good use of her thoughts on Capitals need to expand into non-capititalist areas but reject the way she came up with and applied it. She used it to analyses imperialism and the worl external to capital (as was), he sues it to demonstrate that capital constantly seeks new internal enclosures, the commodifications of everyday life, accumulation by dispossesion.

Paul Mattick is very good on her glaring misreading of Marx's reproduction schema. And she had servants.

You are my servant Butch Didn't Uncle Karl have servants too?

 

[love detective]

Her Accumulation of Capital, despite many flaws, has been one of the most useful post marx marxian works that i've ever read. And on an important area that has generally been ignored by Marxists & Non Marxists alike (while they devote huge swathes of time to relatively unimportant areas like the non transformation problem) - although i'd say its usefulness steadily declines as it moves from part 1 though part 2 to part 3

Got to say there was a massive gap between her politics and her economics - in fact, not so much of a gap as a glaring contradiction. A politics largely based on the capabilities of the working class to organise around and for its own needs, and one that saw them as passive reflectors of the objective condtions and the llaws of the capitlalists model

To be fair, a fairly straight/narrow/literal reading of Capital vols 1 to 3 & TSV could pretty much lead to a similar accusation of Marx (in that there is little, if hardly any, explicit time for the working class as the active subject in Capital the book - but there are reasons for that, which Capital the book in isolation doesn't really provide)

So to some extent it's through knowledge of what Marx originally intended to, but ultimately didn't write (i.e. a political economy of labour, to sit alongside a political economy of capital) that allows for Marx's political economy in total to be rescued from that charge (in addition to a lot of the earlier stuff that he did of course, but again a lot of his stuff is accessible and in english, whereas it only looks like now that Luxembourg's wider body of work is going to become available to do similar things with - so perhaps a similar thing will happen with her)

Agree with your point about her stuff being useful with only a minor change of emphasis from the original territorial/geographical focus of hers to internal expansion etc.. but I always felt that this wider emphasis was always quite heavily implicated in the AOC anyway - or at least it didn't require a huge jump to apply the same points to different situations

 

[butchersapron]

On a similar note, i expected a full non-abridged English version of Grossmans 'Law of accumulation...' to follow Rick Kuhn's Deutscher Memorial Prize winning book on him...doesn't seem to have happened though.

 

[treelover]

the International Socialists (IS) the predecessor of the SWP was apparrently Luxembourgist .. till post 1968 when Cliff ( their leader till his death) following the faiulre of the '68 politics decided that Lenin was correct and what was needed was hard core political party

that was a disaster...

 

[articul8]

I know at least one ISer who argued so at the time..

 

[dennisr]

Berlin has both a Rosa Luxemburg Strasse and a Karl Leibknecht Strasse, both of which I bimbled along last year.

He, he, bimbled along them last week

 

[ViolentPanda]

He, he, bimbled along them last week

Since I first wrote that in 2009, I re-bimbled along them last year.
Apparently, to go with rebuilding the Kaiserpalast, the Berlin authorities were considering renaming Rosastrasse and Karlstrasse back to their original late 19th-century names, but such was public outrage that they knocked that idea on the head sharpish.

 

[twistedAM]

I bet there were a lot of cats called Rosa, most of them owned by student activists. It was the done thing in the 80s/90s.

 

[mk12]

Verso are bringing out a 14 volume edition of her collected works - edited by Peter Hudis (who was associated with News and Letters) - first volume out this year. Most never been translated into english ever before. So basically pretty much all her work that her reputation rests on.

Did she only write that one article on the Russian Revo or should we expect to see more in these collected works?

 

[butchersapron]

Did she only write that one article on the Russian Revo or should we expect to see more in these collected works?

Think about it. You're not stupid.

 

[mk12]

I would have been surprised if there wasn't more to come out. I just wondered if you knew anything for sure. You have a knack of knowing these things!

 

[butchersapron]

I would have been surprised if there wasn't more to come out. I just wondered if you knew anything for sure. You have a knack of knowing these things!

There are 14 volumes of stuff. There is one partial translation of AOC and a collection of journo/polemic pieces - where else would it come from? This just blows away anglophone luxumberg

 

[mk12]

I take it you're hoping for confirmation of a vanguardist, Lenin-lite Luxemburg?

 

[butchersapron]

Bizarre contraption. Hoping for? The Rosa Luxemburg i grew up with would be fine. If the new stuff challenges that fine. If it prods people to read her - fine too.

 

[barney_pig]

I had a cat called Klara

 

[mk12]

I had a budgie called Dunayevskaya

 

[phildwyer]

To be fair, a fairly straight/narrow/literal reading of Capital vols 1 to 3 & TSV could pretty much lead to a similar accusation of Marx (in that there is little, if hardly any, explicit time for the working class as the active subject in Capital the book - but there are reasons for that, which Capital the book in isolation doesn't really provide)

Absolute rubbısh. To be faır, a faırly narrow/straıght/broad/lıteral/metaphorıcal/straıght'n'narrow readıng of BS vols 18 to 36 and KRAP could pretty much not lead out of a not dıssımılar accusatıon of Lenın's dıgenratote speel (ın that there ıs lıttle ıf hardly any ıf not very much ıf just a teeny bıt explıcıt tıme for the neo-kantıan worker as actıve epıstemologıcal subject ın Capıtal the movıe - but there are dıgenrate reasons for that - whıch the speel Capıtal ın ısolatıon doesn't not nearly ıf any provıde) - both routes lead to the same thıng.

 

[phildwyer]

So to some extent it's through knowledge of what Marx originally intended to, but ultimately didn't write (i.e. a political economy of labour, to sit alongside a political economy of capital) that allows for Marx's political economy in total to be rescued from that charge (in addition to a lot of the earlier stuff that he did of course, but again a lot of his stuff is accessible and in english, whereas it only looks like now that Luxembourg's wider body of work is going to become available to do similar things with - so perhaps a similar thing will happen with her)

No ıt won't. Although to some extent - both routes lead to the same thıng - ıt's thorough knowledge of what Marx dıdn't not want to but ın the end couldn't have thought of wrıtıng (ı.e. a dıgenrat speel of capıtal to sıt alongsıde hıs granny) that allowed for Lenın's polıtıcal economy as a whole to be saved from the accusatıon of dıgneratıon by the speel (ın addıtıon to the earlıer charge that hıs speel wasn't degearat but agaın much of hıs speel ıs accessıble ın Luxemburg whweras ıt looks lıke we can now do sımılar thıngs wıth the speel that hasn't had a sımılarly degerate thıng done wıth hıs route to the same speel - so perhaps a sımılar thıng wıll happen to my arsehole).

 

[phildwyer]

Agree with your point about her stuff being useful with only a minor change of emphasis from the original territorial/geographical focus of hers to internal expansion etc.. but I always felt that this wider emphasis was always quite heavily implicated in the AOC anyway - or at least it didn't require a huge jump to apply the same points to different situations

Dısagree wıth your speel about what we mıght so wıth her stuff beıng useful wıth only a mınor change of emphasıs from the route to the same thıng of the neo-kantıan epıstemolog/bog standard focus of her external expansıon of hıs bum - but I alwats felt that hıs emphasıs was neo-kantıan terrıtorıal/gepgraphıcal/confrontatıonal and quıte heavıly ımpğlıcated ın the TOSS anyway - or at least ıt dıdn't requıre a huge leap ın the dark to land upon the speel of kant't epıtemelogıcal speel that degernrooted to the dıfferent sıtuatıon anwyay I always felt.

WANKER.

 

[phildwyer]

Her Accumulation of Capital, despite many flaws, has been one of the most useful post marx marxian works that i've ever read. And on an important area that has generally been ignored by Marxists & Non Marxists alike (while they devote huge swathes of time to relatively unimportant areas like the non transformation problem) - although i'd say its usefulness steadily declines as it moves from part 1 though part 2 to part 3emphasis from the original territorial/geographical focus of hers to internal expansion etc.. but I always felt that this wider emphasis was always quite heavily implicated in the AOC anyway - or at least it didn't require a huge jump to apply the same points to different situations

I really must take ıssue wıth your claım that ıts many flaws - both routes lead to the same thıng - has been one of the most useful post marx marxian marxıst marxy works that i've ever read - and on an important area that has generally been ignored by Marxists & bog standard Non Marxists & neo-kanıtans alike (while they devote huge swathes of speel to relatively degenraort speels about your point about her stuff being useful with only nothıng ıf hardly any but a minor change of epıstemologıcal emphasis from the original territorial/geographical focus of hers to internal expansion etc.. but I always felt that this wider emphasis was always quite heavily implicated in the WANK anyway - or at least it didn't require a huge speel to apply the same points to different situations to do sımılar bog standard thıngs wıth fairly straight/narrow/degarete/ literal reading of vols 1 to 3,000 & SHITE could pretty much lead to a similar accusation of Marx (in that there is little, if hardly any, much time for the epıstemologıcal working class as the active speel - but there are reasons for that - isolation doesn't really provide) although I've always felt that unimportant areas like the non transformation bog standard problem) - although i'd say its usefulness steadily declines as it moves from part 1 though part 2 to part 3 t part 7 to part 12 to part 108 wıthout the change of emphasis from the original territorial/geographical although I've always saıd that to some extent it's through knowledge of what neo-kantıan Marx (in addition to a lot of the earlier stuff that he did of course, but again a lot of his speel is accessible and in english, whereas it only looks like now that Luxembourg's wider body of speel is going to become available to do similar things with - so perhaps a similar bog standard thing will happen with her) focus of hers to internal/external expansion etc.. but I always felt that this wider emphasis was always quite heavily implicated in the KRAP anyway - or at least it didn't require a huge jump to apply the same points to different situations about the speel.

THIS MAN IS TALKING CRAP.

 

[Idris2002]

Are you tripping on something, Phil? You're not normally this spittle-flecked and incoherent.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you tripping on something, Phil? You're not normally this spittle-flecked and incoherent.

He does usually misspell spiel, though.

 

[articul8]

Are you tripping on something, Phil? You're not normally this spittle-flecked and incoherent.

speed + coke??

 

[Captain Hurrah]

lolwut.

 

[love detective]

unrequited love

 

[Louis MacNeice]

unrequited love

Hardly given that Phil's first and enduring love is of the sound of his own voice. Not so much 'the love that dare not speak its name' as 'the love that just can't shut up'.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice