The Lefts inability to challenge Labour.

[dennisr]

Well no. They live in mansions full of gold and girls. Or they want to. Or they pretend they don’t want to.

thought they were just 'looking for self-esteem' a few posts ago? - are you conflating 'self-esteem' as 'sexual fulfilment' and 'security' as 'economic wealth'?? If so its not very original and I guessed you liked to be seen as thinking outside of the box???

 

[TremulousTetra]

Thanks RMP,
The thing is i dont worship the workers. I dont see them all as great.....What I believe the aim of socialists should be is to help represent the views and aspirations of the majority not the most advanced.
Where you or i honestly feel the majority view is wrong i think we should argue against it and for what we believe BUT i do not believe you or me or anyone else has a right to impose our views on the majority.
As i said i think TC was always a good speaker and was so nearly right BUT BUT BUT BUT.

I know people wont let me get away with saying this, so tin hat on, but in my honest opinion sw acted as cartaker for the reformist, anti-capitalist, and unaligned in the SA, against the revolutionarie. And rolled over again and again to the 'right' in RESPECT. far from imposing, if anything, it could be argued, they needed to be more faithfull to who they were, revolutionary socialists. thats my honest opinion, with the benifit of hindsight.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Because he is master of his own destiny, not a slave. His own self directed creator. A genuine and authentic player in the working class as the historic social creative force.

Good body language and posture. Deep alpha voice. Leader of men. Protector of loved ones. Preselection by women. Willingness to emote. Lives in the moment. Civil manner. Good story teller, excellent banter.

He aspires to live each day as if it was his last. “Issues” like global warning are precisely the ideological foundation that define the bourgeois political framework we currently enjoy, the one that demonstrates the impotence of all existing political currents. Sea level rising? Build a fucking dyke. Jesus.

Well no. They live in mansions full of gold and girls. Or they want to. Or they pretend they don’t want to.

Malcom X?

 

[dennisr]

sw acted as cartaker for the reformist, anti-capitalist, and unaligned in the SA, against the revolutionarie. And rolled over again and again to the 'right' in RESPECT. far from imposing

or just be more honest and up-front about where they do have something in common with and form genuine alliances on that basis?

united front

thus opening up a platform within a wider organisation where the differences can be equally openly and honestly discussed. where the wider group can compare the different platforms and decide for themselves?

(ignoring the query around a form of 'caretaking' that involves imposing by shutting down by majority vote of course...)

 

[dennisr]

Malcom X?

Yep, this sky dude doesn't conk his hair

 

[Carousel]

I guessed you liked to be seen as thinking outside of the box?

On the contrary. I'm pro-box.

 

[dennisr]

On the contrary. I'm pro-box.

Well, in that respect you are successful then, in practice

 

[TremulousTetra]

or just be more honest and up-front about where they do have something in common with and form genuine alliances on that basis?

united front

thus opening up a platform within a wider organisation where the differences can be equally openly and honestly discussed. where the wider group can compare the different platforms and decide for themselves?

(ignoring the query around a form of 'caretaking' that involves imposing by shutting down by majority vote of course...)

i'll take to the other thread, its wron to impose it on this one.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Malcom X?

serious question carousel, is this the kind activism of which you suggest? And if he doesn't tackle global warming, what does he tackle? and if hes so self sufficient, how could any party or group tap into that sort of psyche, and what for? is presciption simple hedonism?

 

[tbaldwin]

I know people wont let me get away with saying this, so tin hat on, but in my honest opinion sw acted as cartaker for the reformist, anti-capitalist, and unaligned in the SA, against the revolutionarie. And rolled over again and again to the 'right' in RESPECT. far from imposing, if anything, it could be argued, they needed to be more faithfull to who they were, revolutionary socialists. thats my honest opinion, with the benifit of hindsight.

to be clear i think that a project like RESPECT only came about because the people in it had a lack of respect for the views of the majority.
Given that that was the major unspoken unifying force in the coalition its no suprise to me that it ended like so many other similar initiatives.

 

[Zeppo]

tbaldwin I think this is not the complete picture. However, this is a an area where you could argue for hours - where it went wrong. A mixture of George ego, John Rees wrong tactics etc..

It is a pity what happened and Respect look like they are concentrating on Birmingham, Tower Hamlets and Newham not being a national force.

Yet RMT moves may see a bigger project emerge. Whether this includes the SWP or not we shall see. For the SWP the way forward is key but their past record may halt any progress with others.

Not being in the SWP myself I am not bothered but they need to sort out themselves before going forward.

 

[Carousel]

serious question carousel, is this the kind activism of which you suggest?

I don't suggest activism at all, it's difficult for me to imagine activism which isn't mired in the moribund bourgeois political traditions.

And if he doesn't tackle global warming, what does he tackle?

The actual experience of living.

and if hes so self sufficient…

He isn't. As dennisr points out, our endeavours are bound to the social arena.

how could any party or group tap into that sort of psyche, and what for?

What really matters? Global warming? No thanks.

is presciption simple hedonism?

Ha ha. Well I advocate hedonism, but then my idea of fun includes political discussion on the internet. I do subscribe to the pro-situ idea that the pursuit of desire, of pleasure, is the actual motor of collective action. For sure.

 

[tbaldwin]

tbaldwin I think this is not the complete picture. However, this is a an area where you could argue for hours - where it went wrong. A mixture of George ego, John Rees wrong tactics etc..

It is a pity what happened and Respect look like they are concentrating on Birmingham, Tower Hamlets and Newham not being a national force.

Yet RMT moves may see a bigger project emerge. Whether this includes the SWP or not we shall see. For the SWP the way forward is key but their past record may halt any progress with others.

Not being in the SWP myself I am not bothered but they need to sort out themselves before going forward.

Zeppo you say it is a pity what happened to RESPECT. To me it was not a pity it was INEVITABLE. And its also inevitable that anything inspired/led by RMT leaders will end up just the same as the SLP,RESPECT et etc`

Building an organisation that has so little respect for the views and aspirations of the majority of people is never going to work for the Left.
A succesful left wing organisation will have to be democratic pragmatic and practice and believe in majority control.

 

[Zeppo]

tbaldwin I agree with your analysis on the way forward.

Not sure on the inevitabiity of the demise of left projects but the past would seem to vindicate your view. Something definitely needs to emerge that is democratic and does have a majority pull.

The SP, SWP etc and their way of working is not the way forward.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Zeppo you say it is a pity what happened to RESPECT. To me it was not a pity it was INEVITABLE. And its also inevitable that anything inspired/led by RMT leaders will end up just the same as the SLP,RESPECT et etc`

Building an organisation that has so little respect for the views and aspirations of the majority of people is never going to work for the Left.
A succesful left wing organisation will have to be democratic pragmatic and practice and believe in majority control.

read the accounts. that is what sw advocated, what everbody except the sp advocated, it was democratically inacted in the SA in the sa constitution, and yet sw alone is castigated. again when the majority of NON SW in the SA, voted along with SW to join RESPECT, again sw alone is castigated.

RESPECT is a different story. we did do some things wrong according to sw accounts. however, if sw could have convinced the elected in tower hamlet to squat properties, and go to prison if necasary over housing, there COULD have been another story. in the end, i think even on hetre most accept sw got stitched up by galloway.

in general terms though, i dont agree with you, about copying blair and dashing to the centre ground. my electoral experience on the knocker suggest there isn't a 'market'. [and believe me, i can sell.] I think in todays climate there is a 'market' for a RADICAL alternative.

 

[tbaldwin]

RMP. But the SWP do not believe in majority control they believe in winning over the most advanced sections( as they see it!!) of the working class.
You/they are opposed to the views and aspirations of the majority of people.

 

[TremulousTetra]

RMP. But the SWP do not believe in majority control they believe in winning over the most advanced sections( as they see it!!) of the working class.
You/they are opposed to the views and aspirations of the majority of people.

i did ediot, after you wrote the above.

thats the revolutionary party, here and now. the alliance, sa respect is NOT intended by SW to be revolutionary. reformist, anticapitalist, whatever the majorityn decide, was why we argued for one member one vote, and voted AGAINST things we believed in such ad disarming the police.

 

[tbaldwin]

in general terms though, i dont agree with you, about copying blair and dashing to the centre ground. my electoral experience on the knocker suggest there isn't a 'market'. [and believe me, i can sell.] I think in todays climate there is a 'market' for a RADICAL alternative.

I am not suggesting anything of the sort RMP. Supporting the views and aspirations of the majority to means the SWP etc moving firmly to the Left not the centre.
It means rejecting the concensus politics that the majority needs to be led by a benevolent or not so benevolent minority.

I bet you can sell RPM you come across as one of the better posters on here. But not even the best salesman in the world could sell the politics of the SWP to the majoity of people in the UK.

 

[Joe Reilly]

...my electoral experience on the knocker suggest there isn't a 'market'. [and believe me, i can sell.] I think in todays climate there is a 'market' for a RADICAL alternative.

True, but at present it operates under the initials B-N-P

 

[poster342002]

When you say the left, do you include labour? If so, yes i agree. However, outside they were too small.

I include the entirety of the left, I'm afraid - big and small, insode Labour and outside it. To your average person there's little distinction, anyway.

Even most of the far-left never quite seemed to understand just what was happening.

 

[poster342002]

We have entered a period of huge economic and social turmoil on an international scale that most could not imagine a couple of years ago - one that has been delayed by a decade and is, therefore, deeper than it would otherwise have been.

Not doing us (the left) an awful lot of good, though, is it?

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Interesting to see how http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=224 turns out - Hazel’s Seat To Be Declared `Marginal’ By Labour

 

[tbaldwin]

Interesting to see how http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=224 turns out - Hazel’s Seat To Be Declared `Marginal’ By Labour

A good tactic for any party to the Left of Labour would probably be to stand in seats like Salford where the MP had made themselves markedly unpopular.
The shame is that when there is so much potential for a new left party based on pragmatism one still seems so far away.

 

[TremulousTetra]

A good tactic for any party to the Left of Labour would probably be to stand in seats like Salford where the MP had made themselves markedly unpopular.
The shame is that when there is so much potential for a new left party based on pragmatism one still seems so far away.

I think there is a campaign there. The problem is, people hate Politics. Many quite understandably would rather wreck the system, than take part. Can't say I blame them.