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The Lefts inability to challenge Labour.

come on there's nowhere near the level of threat that there was back then to prospective activists. If you really want to you can join whatever party you like, associate with whom you like with fairly limited to threat to your well-being.
 
come on there's nowhere near the level of threat that there was back then to prospective activists. If you really want to you can join whatever party you like, associate with whom you like with fairly limited to threat to your well-being.

Absolutely!!! I agree with you 100%!!! The question is why do THEY not take control of THEIR destiny, and yet endlessly whine about the those THEY gift that control to?
 
Darling , straw , Prescott ,bloody Kinnocks ....... look where they started from , and just how they ended up ....... just have to laugh

today's revolutionary's.... are tomorrows establishment suits

...anyone who wants to be politically involved , just has to be the wrong sort of person to be allowed to do so .
 
and I'm saying 'the excuses' don't really exist. Or at least are compelling enough to explain why people don't make this left-wing party. That's a more-or-less deliberate choice being made by people.
let me have another go at this. I don't think we are saying that they are more compelling, they are more seductive.

Edited to add. That is the whole point of capitalism, the seduction of the worker to sell his labour is more exploitative than the compulsion the peasantry to pay her protection dues.
 
Darling , straw , Prescott ,bloody Kinnocks ....... look where they started from , and just how they ended up ....... just have to laugh

today's revolutionary's.... are tomorrows establishment suits

...anyone who wants to be politically involved , just has to be the wrong sort of person to be allowed to do so .

That is straight from the Socialist Worker book, The Revolutionary Road To Socialism, the parliamentary system corrupts. That's why I agree with you, you don't just need a electoral alternatively, you need a revolution from below alternative.;)
 
That is straight from the Socialist Worker book, The Revolutionary Road To Socialism, the parliamentary system corrupts. That's why I agree with you, you don't just need a electoral alternatively, you need a revolution from below alternative.;)

and who runs the revolution ...ah yes ...!

probably vote for call me dave ...but it doesn't really matter who gets in ...the country's fucked
 
It is inevitable that people WILL make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please; they do not make it under circumstances chosen by themselves, but under circumstances directly encountered, given and transmitted from the past. The alternative to the left making history under those circumstances, is for somebody else like the fascist to make history under those circumstances. To not engage, is to relinquish the future to barbarism.

None of that helps us now, though, does it?
 
Yep. I find that (bolded) type of simplistic idiocy is still repeated back to me by people who never even lived through the era in question when I try (in vain) to convince people that forever meekly bending over backwards to be dutifully fucked over by the employer might - just might - not be entirely in our best interests.

In tlost of ways this is the entire problem. Alongside the left's dimwitted bumblings, the entrenched attitudes= that grovelling servile docility is some sort of virtue is, I beleive, stuck with us for another generation at least. :(
Perhaps I should said, dont be so pessimistic mate. Things will definitely change. However, if we don't get stuck in and do something about it, somebody else will, and things will be much worse. keep plugging away.:)


:o:o sorry for my shit language. being lazy quoting, cost me more time.
 
conservative attitudes predominate in various guises. the systematic depoliticization of the working-class has been successful. nulab had the mandate to carry out this very task, but they also created home-grown terrorism. so the question for bourgeoisie is going to have to be how to find a holistic solution to the very worst excesses. their failure might be the ground on which a total cure can be founded.
 
Change the political system so as to make it look that new political parties might have more than a cat's chance in hell of getting in and you might start to see some real challenge to Labour.

Either that or get the trades unions to stop funding Labour and see them consigned to the dustbin of history.
 
Change the political system so as to make it look that new political parties might have more than a cat's chance in hell of getting in and you might start to see some real challenge to Labour.

but what does that mean? the BNP, and the Greens lagging behind... that's your challenge to Labour...
 
but what does that mean? the BNP, and the Greens lagging behind... that's your challenge to Labour...

The big parties essentially cannibalise factional sympathisers when it comes to general elections. The fact that the BNP and Greens are bigger than the hard-left parties means nothing - they are not in the same political game.
 
The big parties essentially cannibalise factional sympathisers when it comes to general elections. The fact that the BNP and Greens are bigger than the hard-left parties means nothing - they are not in the same political game.

i hope you are right
 
it is absolutely no use for revolutionaries being like nick Griffin and Tony Blair, rushing to the centre ground, supporting capital punishment, because that's what the majority 'want'. You cannot disentangle from 'British jobs for British workers', the FACT the dominant ideas in a society are those of the ruling class. If you want to overthrow the ruling class, there you cant accept the ruling classes ideas.

The ruling ideas are those of the ruling class. Sadly i think a lot of supposed left wingers have fallen for the ideas put across by the media.
On crime they have fallen for the idea that the Left should be putting across nonsensical liberal arguements that mean people see them as spineless and forgetting the victims of crime. On immigration again they have fallen for the idea that the Left should just be anti the handful of racist twats and take a free market position that makes a nonsense of being anti capitalist.
A position that is deeply unpopular and almost completely irrational.

And as you say if you accept the ideas of the ruling class you can hope to overthrow them.
 
Any left party will need to build through the grassroots and challenge at ward level. There's no reason why they can't, but it will take some time.

Independents do it all the time. Greens do it. IWCA did it. Respect haven't got as far as they really should given their national recognition levels.

5 or 6 committed and like minded lefties in the right ward could get in within 2 years, given a fair wind.

broad left unity is not neccessary for this to start to happen.

I think there is a lot of truth in that. A lot of People (and not just the usual suspects) would like a credible alternative to the main parties.
An alternative that makes some kind of sense and stands against the corruption in public life and excesses of capitalism of things like the banking crisis.
 
It all boils down to lack of unity. Each small left wing party is ran by powermad secretarians who will not work with anyone else.
 
conservative attitudes predominate in various guises. the systematic depoliticization of the working-class has been successful.
Problem is that some see this depoliticisation as a deliberate choice made by the working-class, rather than something they've been "educated" (for which read "indoctrinated") into. Apathy may be part of the problem, but it's certainly not the whole problem.
nulab had the mandate to carry out this very task, but they also created home-grown terrorism.
"New Labour" were always highly unlikely to offer a new, better "politics for all". That game was up as soon as they decided that it was better to submit to neo-liberalism than to try to act in the interests of the electorate.
so the question for bourgeoisie is going to have to be how to find a holistic solution to the very worst excesses. their failure might be the ground on which a total cure can be founded.
Except that the excesses, while they've caused a recession similar to that which spanned the late 1970s to the mid 1980s, probably won't have anywhere near the effect on the bourgeoisie that they'll have on the working class and underclass, but probably still not enough of an effect to make people take their political futures into their own hands. :(
 
but what does that mean? the BNP, and the Greens lagging behind... that's your challenge to Labour...

If you're going to stick to the Parliamentary route (not quite my cup of tea, but still...), then I suppose the hope is that some form of PR might allow more "independent" MPs into Parliament, and therefore create a need for more "inclusive" (i.e. accommodating to the political demands of public interest groups) coalitions.
Hardly something to set much story by hope-wise, I'd say.
 
I thought you were a contented LP member baldwin, has that changed recently?

That interestingly is what some other people probably thought. And you have to ask yourself why? It seems to be based purely on the fact when people have come out with hysterical hype about how bad the LP are i have pointed out a few counter points.
I would like to see a left wing alternative to the LP but not one based on exaggeration or hysteria. The LP have made many mistakes but in practice most people do...its only theoretically that people can find some inner perfection.
One of the problems only the Left has always been a lack of honesty about themselves and about the main political parties.
 
Partly its ambition. Compare the left to Greens and BNP. They are both expect to do well, and alter thair tactics if they do not. They go around, not through opposition wherever possible. The use of the maintream media (Greens) and of alternative media (BNP) means that they get their message accross, which we do not. To the voters, socialism means dead russians

They both see time as not on their side, Greens by way of global warming and BNP by demographic change. They are both almost religious in nature in this regard, and it helps them. They want power and they want it now- and have the apparance of wanting to win.
 
There is one reason why far left parties haven't made any inroads on Labour support and that is people not inclinded to vote Tory look at the far left in disgust (rightly in my view) and just don't support them. It is delusional to think that there is any appetite for zany and antidemocratic far leftery.
 
There is one reason why far left parties haven't made any inroads on Labour support and that is people not inclinded to vote Tory look at the far left in disgust (rightly in my view) and just don't support them. It is delusional to think that there is any appetite for zany and antidemocratic far leftery.

a very disingenuous reading of current political landscapes.

The Labour party are centrists now, as are the Tories. You can get a fag paper between them, but no more.

the SP and attendant trot sects are far truer to the old labour principles abandoned for electoral success by Smiler and the Clunking Fist
 
a very disingenuous reading of current political landscapes.

The Labour party are centrists now, as are the Tories. You can get a fag paper between them, but no more.

the SP and attendant trot sects are far truer to the old labour principles abandoned for electoral success by Smiler and the Clunking Fist


Quite frankly the far left is selling a product for which there is no market. There was a market for far leftery in the 30's but the excesses of Stalin and other despots of the left kicked the bottom out of that market.
 
Quite frankly the far left is selling a product for which there is no market. There was a market for far leftery in the 30's but the excesses of Stalin and other despots of the left kicked the bottom out of that market.

I think your correct there. The far left is rolling around in the dustbin of history shouting at each other. BUT the ideas of social justice are not in the dustbin of history. The idea that people should co-operate for the common good is not just history.
We need a Left that is democractic and pragmatic. Realistic Honest and non dogmatic.
 
Quite frankly the far left is selling a product for which there is no market. There was a market for far leftery in the 30's but the excesses of Stalin and other despots of the left kicked the bottom out of that market.

From 1993- 2003 the SSP and previous organisations it was a successor to in Scotland showed there was a market for left politics in Scotland. With the biggest boost being after 2001 where the non-SWP left learned how to come to an accomodation with the SWP
 
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