The left ... continued ..

[audiotech]

A comedy classic.

 

[durruti02]

A comedy classic.

sorry who is that aimed at? me?? do you ever read anything anyone says??

 

[audiotech]

sorry who is that aimed at? me?? do you ever read anything anyone says??

1) If you want it to be?

2) No, but I do listen to what anyone says.

 

[The Black Hand]

Someone yesterday told me an anecdote that Tony Cliff once told about being in a public meeting in Newcastle (back in the 70s or 80s I guess) and a guy coming afterwards and saying, "How many members do you have, like?" and Cliff replying with some pride, "Just over 4000" and the bloke saying, "That's tiny in a city of Newcastle's size!"

Now the left as a whole- let alone the SWP- is smaller than this and it is completely desperate. The organised left is irrelevant to the concerns of the vast majority of working class people being about 0.005% of th epopulation and completely divided and sectarian, not interested in building campaigns or working class organisations but in promoting their little grouplet as the saviour of the working class.

We need to reconnect with ordinary people's concerns, put aside the ridiculous sectarainism and speak in a new language and actually connect.

I don't accept brassicattack's point particularly- the 19th century business is very sloppy thinking- actually the left talks in the language of the 1920s and 30s not the 19th century; the working class still exists- the basic relation of capital and labour still exists. It's the ossification and lack of relationships with the working class that is the problem. This- mass action- has the power to change the world.

Donna's point:


As for the desert analogy- yes there have been massive defeats but if socialists relate to working class concerns there's still fertile gound on which to grow. I don't accept the idea that it's impossible at all. It's just we need to learn almost completely from scratch ways of organising and speaking to people- I say almost because of course the past is rich in lessons but they need to be actively learned, thought about, experiemented with, not just parroted off as some faithful litany that instantly marks you off as weird puritans cut off from real life. And most of all get out of this sect mentality. The SWP won't set me free, as Linton Kwesi Johnso once sang, nor the SP, nor Respect, nor any of the other groups (inlcuding the one I'm in Permanent Revolution), nor the anarchists/libetarians or populists.

We need to start again; be humble, open, honest and try genuinely in a nosectarian manner to win campaigns, win strikes, connect with real issues. People made capitlaism; people made oppression; it can be unmade; we can make ourselves free; we just have to try by forming democratic workers' organisations and making the links, speaking the language of everyday people.

Donna's point is well worth considering:
"Much of this is easy to agree with but it's possibly that there's a much wider problem that simply can't be solved by doing things the right way: and that's that the basic audience for leftwing ideas has ceased to believe in them for the while. Not because they've not been put in the right way, not because aybody's been forgotten, not because of anyting that's anybody's fault, but simply because society has changed and people don't believe those ideas are apt or effective or relevant"

However, it is surely worth a go to try to use ideas- ideas we know from our own expereince can work on a small scale at least- to show that they continue to be apt, relevant and effective. Donna's definitely right that sloganising and left groups denouncing one another not only gets us nowhere and makes activists disillusioned- it makes the vast majority of the rest of the world see the left as a mad irrelevant dogmatic sectarian disease. If Donna's right we have to be patient- sure. However, there are good reasons to believe that how we approach campaigns, strikes, issues can make a big difference.

Durutti - yes this is good - this is a desire for 21st century class formation theory.

 

[The Black Hand]

Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.

At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.

Those concerned should be having a series of mini conferences/ 'research seminars' (2 or 3 a year) where such things can be planned, supported and disseminated.

 

[durruti02]

1) If you want it to be?

2) No, but I do listen to what anyone says.

you are on fine form tonight MC!

 

[nino_savatte]

Ban nino edna for a start I will ask you agin as you skillfully avoided giving a straight answer before do you think that there is a culture of blame within the left which allows it to shift the reponsibility of societys condtion onto that which would be formally considered its foundation?

1 Build bridges and 2 get violent panda to cross examine your posts - i see that your prime concern is immigration and it makes you look at bit single issue there is much more to the workings of state power and neo -labour than immigration. How does the state implement its policies and how can the mechanisms for such policy implementations be challenged - these i think are important issues that as yet i have not seen even thought about on these boards. You made a good effort with the good manners thread challenging those who flame newbies on these boards and the trolls who try to derail threads. But nino edna thinks the worlds going to end soon so maybe we are all to late

If anyone should be banned it should be you. You contribute nothing but snide comments. If i were to look at all of your recent posts, I'm willing to bet that none of those contain any substance.

There isn't a single post on this page that isn't a snide remark or a cheap shot.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=3812483

There's an auld saying "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". A cretin like you would do well to remember that.

 

[Sue]

Nino, maybe you should take a break from all this and have a bit of a rest. None of the stuff here matters and maybe you'll realise that if you get away from it for a wee bit. I'm being serious here and this isn't meant in a horrible way - quite the opposite in fact.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sue
This message is hidden because Sue is on your ignore list.

 

[tbaldwin]

Nino, maybe you should take a break from all this and have a bit of a rest. None of the stuff here matters and maybe you'll realise that if you get away from it for a wee bit. I'm being serious here and this isn't meant in a horrible way - quite the opposite in fact.

It doesnt matter what approach you try with nino, sue. Unless you agree with him 100% he hates you....

 

[Sue]

Oh. How strange. He's got me on ignore.

 

[Lock&Light]

Oh. How strange. He's got me on ignore.

He frequently pretends to have people on ignore, but he can't resist peeping.

 

[nightbreed]

Quickly changing the subject did anyone see this in yesterdays Morning Star?

'JOHN McDONNELL writes:>

AFTER the events at the TUC and Labour Party conference, it is time for the left to take a hard-nosed look at where we go from here.

First of all, we have to face up to the harsh realities of the new political world in which we are operating.

The historical path of the left stems from working people coming together in the workplace and discovering their strength through solidarity. Nourished by socialist ideas, they recognised that, if they wanted to exercise power beyond the workplace, they needed political representation. So the Labour Party was born.

Democratic party structures were established to develop the policy programmes to be implemented when power was achieved.

This week’s vote to close down democratic decision-making at the Labour Party conference and Gordon Brown’s first speech as leader demonstrated that the old strategy is largely over. The conference is now virtually irrelevant and its replacement, the National Policy Forum, is a behind-closed-doors exercise of centralised control of party policy-making.

Brown’s speeches at both the TUC and Labour conference demonstrated decisively how much he fundamentally believes in the principles of neoliberalism - the dominance of the market, flexible labour and privatisation.

Even if there was the potential to use what is left of the party’s structures to attempt to influence him, it is clear that the overall political direction of the Brown government is non-negotiable.

The left has the difficult task of accepting and explaining to others that the old routes into the exercise of power and influence involving internal Labour Party mobilisations and manoeuvres have largely been closed down. We have to face up to the challenge of identifying and developing new routes into effective political activity.

The contradiction is that the more undemocratic the Labour Party becomes, the more it cuts itself off from the real world at a time when new social movements are emerging.

People may be increasingly giving up on political parties, but they haven’t given up on politics. They still want to challenge the injustices they meet in our society and they are devising a multitude of mechanisms to do so, from independent media and climate camps to affinity groups organising direct action.

New social movements have mobilised on a vast array of issues ranging from climate change, asylum rights, to housing and arms sales. Many trade unions have also rediscovered their roots as social movements themselves in their new campaigns on everything from private equity to the exploitation of migrant workers.

New alliances are being forged and, where trade union leaderships have been incorporated as supporters of the status quo, rank-and-file activity within their unions is re-emerging and organising.

The difficult task for the left now is to appreciate that new strategies, new coalitions of forces and, above all else, a new dynamism are needed to deal with the new political environment where the traditional routes have been so narrowed.

The left needs to open itself to co-operation with progressive campaigns within our community, learning from them, treating them with mutual respect, rejecting any patronising or sectarian approach and, where needed, to serve as the catalyst to instigate and facilitate campaigning activity. Creativity is also needed to stimulate the analysis, debate and discussion of the ideas and principles which we may share in our wish to transform our society.

The main political parties are increasingly seen as irrelevant to the real-world issues facing our communities, resulting in declining participation rates and election turnouts and deepening scepticism.

This doesn’t mean that people are apathetic. Far from it.

There is a growing radical nature to our times and an opportunity for a period of exciting, frenetic activity capable of creating a climate of progressive hegemony which no government could immunise itself from no matter how ruthlessly it closes down democracy in its own party.,

John McDonnell is Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington. His book Another World is Possible: A manifesto for 21st century socialism is available to buy online, price £2.50 inc p&p at www.l-r-c.org.uk or by sending a cheque payable to LRC to PO Box 2378, London, E5 9QU.'

Is John McDonnell about to jump ship and join all those exMP Labour lefts and get fuck all votes at the next election?

(I dont count Galloway cos (a) he is a tool and (b) he is not particularly left)

 

[The Black Hand]

No I didn't see it but it is an article I could have written

 

[Louis MacNeice]

No I didn't see it but it is an article I could have written

Don't worry you will.

 

[The Black Hand]

Don't worry you will.

Worrying is for the insecure so I don't do it

 

[durruti02]

Quickly changing the subject did anyone see this in yesterdays Morning Star?

'JOHN McDONNELL writes:>

AFTER the events at the TUC and Labour Party conference, it is time for the left to take a hard-nosed look at where we go from here.

First of all, we have to face up to the harsh realities of the new political world in which we are operating.

The historical path of the left stems from working people coming together in the workplace and discovering their strength through solidarity. Nourished by socialist ideas, they recognised that, if they wanted to exercise power beyond the workplace, they needed political representation. So the Labour Party was born.

Democratic party structures were established to develop the policy programmes to be implemented when power was achieved.

This week’s vote to close down democratic decision-making at the Labour Party conference and Gordon Brown’s first speech as leader demonstrated that the old strategy is largely over. The conference is now virtually irrelevant and its replacement, the National Policy Forum, is a behind-closed-doors exercise of centralised control of party policy-making.

Brown’s speeches at both the TUC and Labour conference demonstrated decisively how much he fundamentally believes in the principles of neoliberalism - the dominance of the market, flexible labour and privatisation.

Even if there was the potential to use what is left of the party’s structures to attempt to influence him, it is clear that the overall political direction of the Brown government is non-negotiable.

The left has the difficult task of accepting and explaining to others that the old routes into the exercise of power and influence involving internal Labour Party mobilisations and manoeuvres have largely been closed down. We have to face up to the challenge of identifying and developing new routes into effective political activity.

The contradiction is that the more undemocratic the Labour Party becomes, the more it cuts itself off from the real world at a time when new social movements are emerging.

People may be increasingly giving up on political parties, but they haven’t given up on politics. They still want to challenge the injustices they meet in our society and they are devising a multitude of mechanisms to do so, from independent media and climate camps to affinity groups organising direct action.

New social movements have mobilised on a vast array of issues ranging from climate change, asylum rights, to housing and arms sales. Many trade unions have also rediscovered their roots as social movements themselves in their new campaigns on everything from private equity to the exploitation of migrant workers.

New alliances are being forged and, where trade union leaderships have been incorporated as supporters of the status quo, rank-and-file activity within their unions is re-emerging and organising.

The difficult task for the left now is to appreciate that new strategies, new coalitions of forces and, above all else, a new dynamism are needed to deal with the new political environment where the traditional routes have been so narrowed.

The left needs to open itself to co-operation with progressive campaigns within our community, learning from them, treating them with mutual respect, rejecting any patronising or sectarian approach and, where needed, to serve as the catalyst to instigate and facilitate campaigning activity. Creativity is also needed to stimulate the analysis, debate and discussion of the ideas and principles which we may share in our wish to transform our society.

The main political parties are increasingly seen as irrelevant to the real-world issues facing our communities, resulting in declining participation rates and election turnouts and deepening scepticism.

This doesn’t mean that people are apathetic. Far from it.

There is a growing radical nature to our times and an opportunity for a period of exciting, frenetic activity capable of creating a climate of progressive hegemony which no government could immunise itself from no matter how ruthlessly it closes down democracy in its own party.,

John McDonnell is Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington. His book Another World is Possible: A manifesto for 21st century socialism is available to buy online, price £2.50 inc p&p at www.l-r-c.org.uk or by sending a cheque payable to LRC to PO Box 2378, London, E5 9QU.'

Is John McDonnell about to jump ship and join all those exMP Labour lefts and get fuck all votes at the next election?

(I dont count Galloway cos (a) he is a tool and (b) he is not particularly left)

intersting but i neverreally get what these labour lefts are doing .. an enormous amount of energy went into the mcdonnel campaign ... did anything useful come from it?