The left ... continued ..
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
cockneyrebel
New Member
OK gotcha. Dohhh!
Also who is Donna Ferentes, is that a reference to someone?
Also who is Donna Ferentes, is that a reference to someone?
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
It's a mistransliteration.
cockneyrebel
New Member
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Thanks, dennisr, but I've been reading articles like that in the leftist press for about twenty years now. Like mirages in the heat (or those "scientist developes possible cure for cancer" type-stories in the press), none of it ever comes to anything.dennisr said:
I used to lap it all up with gusto, really believing that hope was in the air and things were looking up. I used to write off my own workplace experiences as being the exception to the rule. Now I've come realise that it's the other way round. The examples of the type you link to are the exceptions.
Moreover, these sort of accounts are always happening somewhere else - never any workplace I or anybody I know happens to actually be working in. I don't doubt their veracity, but they seem to be small crumbs here and there and not representative of the wider reality.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Poster makes a good point- though nearly ruins it by a dose of miserabilism.
I think there is some substance to your point Poster that we've been having reports like this for near on 20 years
the question is how to join up the dots or the islands of struggle
(poster nearly ruins it by exaggeration by saying they're always somewhere else and that s/he never knows anyone involved- if you mean in your normal circle of acquaintances may be you're right I think active campaigns are quite few and far between but it's very easy to get in contact with these campaigns and actually begin to know some of the people- you can pm me if you want- th epoint is that struggle is sporadic but we can not only verify it's happening but get stuck in even if just raising money or whatever or in your locality)
However, the bigger picture the weakness of the left and the weakness of working class struggle is a real issue. There's no point exaggerating how bad it is or exaggerating how good it is. The point is to connect the struggles, begin with small things and then slowly the exceptionalism of fighting back might begin to change.
I think there is some substance to your point Poster that we've been having reports like this for near on 20 years
the question is how to join up the dots or the islands of struggle
(poster nearly ruins it by exaggeration by saying they're always somewhere else and that s/he never knows anyone involved- if you mean in your normal circle of acquaintances may be you're right I think active campaigns are quite few and far between but it's very easy to get in contact with these campaigns and actually begin to know some of the people- you can pm me if you want- th epoint is that struggle is sporadic but we can not only verify it's happening but get stuck in even if just raising money or whatever or in your locality)
However, the bigger picture the weakness of the left and the weakness of working class struggle is a real issue. There's no point exaggerating how bad it is or exaggerating how good it is. The point is to connect the struggles, begin with small things and then slowly the exceptionalism of fighting back might begin to change.
The left ...the middle..the right all are in disarray.
Coming from the left, there is lots to be depressed. However, it is not over as another poster said. The jargon of small left parties and the lets start a Marxist Party is irrelevant to the mass of working people.
Communicating left ideas need to be put in a more sensible and simple way - the contradictions in the system will not go away. The 'left' need to build solid links in campaigns. The revolution will not be televised or on the internet on chat boards. From little acorns...
Coming from the left, there is lots to be depressed. However, it is not over as another poster said. The jargon of small left parties and the lets start a Marxist Party is irrelevant to the mass of working people.
Communicating left ideas need to be put in a more sensible and simple way - the contradictions in the system will not go away. The 'left' need to build solid links in campaigns. The revolution will not be televised or on the internet on chat boards. From little acorns...
urbanrevolt
New Member
Zeppo said:
Excellent post.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
brasicattack said:this whole thread is a waste of time It is up to people and 80% of political urbanites live on planet 1980 as does the left by left i mean SWP respect GG etc you all burnt your bridges in the 70s/80s when you blamed the the working class for everything even wanting there own home made them thatcherite. your chickens are now coming home to roost . You always see the working class and other groups as there to serve you its like you expect them to be doing your bidding and fighting your courses why? why should they? You only need to see how people like treelover get flamed by moderators who see themselves as progressive to understand that the left/liberal whatever functions as part of the system that oppres'es people.
You and your post are wastes of time. As usual, you have nothing to contribute to the thread.
urbanrevolt said:
good post .. and yes both poster and dennis are right in a way! there is alot of things going on .. small acts of resistance .. but equally it is at an histiorically low level of struggle
there is much to be pessimistic about Poster but i always believed cliffs 'optimism of the will pessimism of the intelect' .. without any scientific foundation mind!
i do not think we need to throw the baby out with the bath water but equally i think the left need to face up to the fact that their politics is not working/connecting/winning generally and look at where it DOES work and generlaise that .. so e.g IWCA in oxford .. maybe SP in cov (??) don't know details or Respect in preston and more importanlty all the little things/campaigns that do and have worked ..
and also the mentionning the great unmentionable!
you know what i mean!poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I would say they've never been more apparent or obvious. And yet, never before has everyone been so resolutely determined not to see the elephant in the living room. This is what's so fucked up about the times we're living through.Zeppo said:
nino_savatte said:
sorry i did not see what your as ever highly relevent highly intellectual contribution to this thread was nino still no suprise there keep up your vacuam-This thread is all fluff acorns do not grow into oaks when planted in deserts i do not doubt the good intenetions of the majority of posters but you are fighting the ideaoloigal war of this century with the weapons of the nineteenth
urbanrevolt
New Member
Someone yesterday told me an anecdote that Tony Cliff once told about being in a public meeting in Newcastle (back in the 70s or 80s I guess) and a guy coming afterwards and saying, "How many members do you have, like?" and Cliff replying with some pride, "Just over 4000" and the bloke saying, "That's tiny in a city of Newcastle's size!"
Now the left as a whole- let alone the SWP- is smaller than this and it is completely desperate. The organised left is irrelevant to the concerns of the vast majority of working class people being about 0.005% of th epopulation and completely divided and sectarian, not interested in building campaigns or working class organisations but in promoting their little grouplet as the saviour of the working class.
We need to reconnect with ordinary people's concerns, put aside the ridiculous sectarainism and speak in a new language and actually connect.
I don't accept brassicattack's point particularly- the 19th century business is very sloppy thinking- actually the left talks in the language of the 1920s and 30s not the 19th century; the working class still exists- the basic relation of capital and labour still exists. It's the ossification and lack of relationships with the working class that is the problem. This- mass action- has the power to change the world.
Donna's point:
As for the desert analogy- yes there have been massive defeats but if socialists relate to working class concerns there's still fertile gound on which to grow. I don't accept the idea that it's impossible at all. It's just we need to learn almost completely from scratch ways of organising and speaking to people- I say almost because of course the past is rich in lessons but they need to be actively learned, thought about, experiemented with, not just parroted off as some faithful litany that instantly marks you off as weird puritans cut off from real life. And most of all get out of this sect mentality. The SWP won't set me free, as Linton Kwesi Johnso once sang, nor the SP, nor Respect, nor any of the other groups (inlcuding the one I'm in Permanent Revolution), nor the anarchists/libetarians or populists.
We need to start again; be humble, open, honest and try genuinely in a nosectarian manner to win campaigns, win strikes, connect with real issues. People made capitlaism; people made oppression; it can be unmade; we can make ourselves free; we just have to try by forming democratic workers' organisations and making the links, speaking the language of everyday people.
Donna's point is well worth considering:
"Much of this is easy to agree with but it's possibly that there's a much wider problem that simply can't be solved by doing things the right way: and that's that the basic audience for leftwing ideas has ceased to believe in them for the while. Not because they've not been put in the right way, not because aybody's been forgotten, not because of anyting that's anybody's fault, but simply because society has changed and people don't believe those ideas are apt or effective or relevant"
However, it is surely worth a go to try to use ideas- ideas we know from our own expereince can work on a small scale at least- to show that they continue to be apt, relevant and effective. Donna's definitely right that sloganising and left groups denouncing one another not only gets us nowhere and makes activists disillusioned- it makes the vast majority of the rest of the world see the left as a mad irrelevant dogmatic sectarian disease. If Donna's right we have to be patient- sure. However, there are good reasons to believe that how we approach campaigns, strikes, issues can make a big difference.
Now the left as a whole- let alone the SWP- is smaller than this and it is completely desperate. The organised left is irrelevant to the concerns of the vast majority of working class people being about 0.005% of th epopulation and completely divided and sectarian, not interested in building campaigns or working class organisations but in promoting their little grouplet as the saviour of the working class.
We need to reconnect with ordinary people's concerns, put aside the ridiculous sectarainism and speak in a new language and actually connect.
I don't accept brassicattack's point particularly- the 19th century business is very sloppy thinking- actually the left talks in the language of the 1920s and 30s not the 19th century; the working class still exists- the basic relation of capital and labour still exists. It's the ossification and lack of relationships with the working class that is the problem. This- mass action- has the power to change the world.
Donna's point:
As for the desert analogy- yes there have been massive defeats but if socialists relate to working class concerns there's still fertile gound on which to grow. I don't accept the idea that it's impossible at all. It's just we need to learn almost completely from scratch ways of organising and speaking to people- I say almost because of course the past is rich in lessons but they need to be actively learned, thought about, experiemented with, not just parroted off as some faithful litany that instantly marks you off as weird puritans cut off from real life. And most of all get out of this sect mentality. The SWP won't set me free, as Linton Kwesi Johnso once sang, nor the SP, nor Respect, nor any of the other groups (inlcuding the one I'm in Permanent Revolution), nor the anarchists/libetarians or populists.
We need to start again; be humble, open, honest and try genuinely in a nosectarian manner to win campaigns, win strikes, connect with real issues. People made capitlaism; people made oppression; it can be unmade; we can make ourselves free; we just have to try by forming democratic workers' organisations and making the links, speaking the language of everyday people.
Donna's point is well worth considering:
"Much of this is easy to agree with but it's possibly that there's a much wider problem that simply can't be solved by doing things the right way: and that's that the basic audience for leftwing ideas has ceased to believe in them for the while. Not because they've not been put in the right way, not because aybody's been forgotten, not because of anyting that's anybody's fault, but simply because society has changed and people don't believe those ideas are apt or effective or relevant"
However, it is surely worth a go to try to use ideas- ideas we know from our own expereince can work on a small scale at least- to show that they continue to be apt, relevant and effective. Donna's definitely right that sloganising and left groups denouncing one another not only gets us nowhere and makes activists disillusioned- it makes the vast majority of the rest of the world see the left as a mad irrelevant dogmatic sectarian disease. If Donna's right we have to be patient- sure. However, there are good reasons to believe that how we approach campaigns, strikes, issues can make a big difference.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
nino_savatte said:
There is only one peoples poet on these boards my below bridge dwelling little friend to find the idenitity all you need do is gaze into the water whilst you wait for your next goat. I think that when i originally used the term a long time ago i aimed it at violent panda who as it turns out actually has made some interesting points and is not that bad in acting as both an intellectual an ideological counter weight to customs officer durruti . Please at least try to be original when flaming my little popet and contribute intellectually oopps i forgot who this post was aimed at
Nino thats you that is. You are edna.
urbanrevolt
New Member
I don't know yet. By getting stuck in, by making campaigning central to our work, by listening to workers, by being flexible with our langauge and arguments though sticking steadfast to our principles, rethink and question everythingby giving it a go.
Will it work? I don't know. It's got to be worth a try. And why see everything through the prism of groups. It's not about promoting Permanent Revolution as a group- sure we'd encourage people to join, debate with us etc.
But also very happy to work alongised people who don't see themselves as revolutionaries, trotskyists or whatever.
waht are your ideas?
Will it work? I don't know. It's got to be worth a try. And why see everything through the prism of groups. It's not about promoting Permanent Revolution as a group- sure we'd encourage people to join, debate with us etc.
But also very happy to work alongised people who don't see themselves as revolutionaries, trotskyists or whatever.
waht are your ideas?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
brasicattack said:There is only one peoples poet on these boards my below bridge dwelling little friend to find the idenitity all you need do is gaze into the water whilst you wait for your next goat. I think that when i originally used the term a long time ago i aimed it at violent panda who as it turns out actually has made some interesting points and is not that bad in acting as both an intellectual an ideological counter weight to customs officer durruti . Please at least try to be original when flaming my little popet and contribute intellectually oopps i forgot who this post was aimed at
More crap from the People' Poet. You may think that you've written something here that is comprehensible. Pity you live in your own world - eh?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
brasicattack said:
Nino thats you that is. You are edna.
I don't think I have ever seen you actually contribute to a thread.
nino_savatte said:
I am not suprised as you dont think full stop
durruti02 said:what should we then do?
Ban nino edna for a start
I will ask you agin as you skillfully avoided giving a straight answer before do you think that there is a culture of blame within the left which allows it to shift the reponsibility of societys condtion onto that which would be formally considered its foundation?1 Build bridges and 2 get violent panda to cross examine your posts - i see that your prime concern is immigration and it makes you look at bit single issue there is much more to the workings of state power and neo -labour than immigration. How does the state implement its policies and how can the mechanisms for such policy implementations be challenged - these i think are important issues that as yet i have not seen even thought about on these boards. You made a good effort with the good manners thread challenging those who flame newbies on these boards and the trolls who try to derail threads. But nino edna thinks the worlds going to end soon so maybe we are all to late
brasicattack said:Ban nino edna for a start
I will ask you agin as you skillfully avoided giving a straight answer before do you think that there is a culture of blame within the left which allows it to shift the reponsibility of societys condtion onto that which would be formally considered its foundation?
1 Build bridges and 2 get violent panda to cross examine your posts - i see that your prime concern is immigration and it makes you look at bit single issue there is much more to the workings of state power and neo -labour than immigration. How does the state implement its policies and how can the mechanisms for such policy implementations be challenged - these i think are important issues that as yet i have not seen even thought about on these boards. You made a good effort with the good manners thread challenging those who flame newbies on these boards and the trolls who try to derail threads. But nino edna thinks the worlds going to end soon so maybe we are all to late
interesting post
1) yes i do think there is that culture within the left. why? not sure .. partly i think as many left are middle class and look down or patronise w/c people and when w/c do not do what these lefties want them to do or think like they, should they blame them
2) yes absolutely again, immigration is OBVIOUSLY only one of many economic and political mechanisms that affect us .. my 'obsession' with it is more the ignorence of some and a decling some on the left to understand and deal with the phenomena AND that it highlights your first point wherin many on the left do NOT listen to w/c people and if they do and hear the wrong thing then stigmatise those people
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