The left ... continued ..

[nino_savatte]

Well, you can't blame me if this thread's gone tits up; it was fatal flawed from the start.

 

[poster342002]

At the moment - in the UK - i don't see any major movement independent of the established tu's so that is still the place to put across progressive ideas. It may well change in the future but I would not agree with isolating myself in the meantime

Trouble is, the TUs themselves are now an isolated, marginalised irrelavance to most people. Empty vessels run by generals with no armies.

Bugger all of the workforce is in a union and those that are either don't see their membership in anything like the kind of "them and us" TU memebrships of old - or they end up pissed off when they turn to their union for help at work and get stonewalled by officials that seem to have the employer's interests at heart rather than the members'.

 

[poster342002]

We have to base ourselves in the workers' organisations, in the trade unions at workplace level. Our leaders betray us not in the sense that they are necessarily different now than they were before but in the sense that they claim to be acting on our behalf but do nthing of the sort most of the time- acting behind closed doors, not implementing conference policy, not even conducting ballots most of the time, ignoring results or calling off action.

[SNIP]

At the best we'll get a ballot for a 1 day strike and may be- though I doubt it- even go on strike and possibly win an extra 1/2 % but probably not even that UNLESS activists kick up an almighty fuss and start doing something about it ourselves.

And supposing the officials just ignore you? What then? What if no amount of kicking and screaming can make the officials do anything?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Then at worst, they can do no more than you.

 

[poster342002]

I did read the entire OP but I didn't think we had a left since nu labour got in.

Agreed. The entire left in and outside the LP just seemed to get into a state of terminal confusion at this point and set a course for super-irrelevancy. I predict history books and thesises will be written on the phenomena in the future.

 

[dennisr]

And supposing the officials just ignore you? What then? What if no amount of kicking and screaming can make the officials do anything?

there are plenty of examples of folk going outside of officialdom. I'll dig out some recent ones for you when i get a chance.

unions are made up of their members - its a simple point but one that both you and the full-time officials you mention tend to forget

 

[dennisr]

Agreed. The entire left in and outside the LP just seemed to get into a state of terminal confusion at this point and set a course for super-irrelevancy. I predict history books and thesises will be written on the phenomena in the future.

I predict it won't be written by you.

 

[dennisr]

Then at worst, they can do no more than you.

"no, its all hopeless"

(copywright, posterXXX, most trade union officials, the governments offical line etc etc e7c, 2007)

 

[poster342002]

unions are made up of their members - its a simple point but one that both you and the full-time officials you mention tend to forget

Yes, unions are made up of their members. Who are largely powerless or apathetic or both.

 

[dennisr]

Yes, unions are made up of their members. Who are largely powerless or apathetic or both.

"the servile masses are all hopeless"

(copywright posterXXX)



give them a chance mate

 

[poster342002]

"the servile masses are all hopeless"

(copywright posterXXX)



give them a chance mate

I would have though 30-odd years would have been long enough, don't you? All I see is everyone getting less and less militant, less and less collective-minded, more individualistic, more reactionary, more inconsiderate, more willing to stab their colleageus in the back (only joining together to victimise and hound someone out of a job rather than join together against the employer), more "aspirational" (looking to join the boss class rather than looking to form solidarity against the boss class) and so forth.

Donna ferentes is right - there just isn't an audience for any proposals for a humane society anymore. 30 years of moneterist extolling of viciousness and the promotion of spite as a virtue has turned the country into a nation of proud backstabbers.

How the hell we set about unscrambling this egg I just don't know.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Then I am deeply sorry to be adding nothing of value to the fraternal, original and fruitful discussion that would otherwise obtain.

But you never add anything to any of the debates (or very rarely), just one liners. If you think the threads are nothing of value why spend your time putting up boring and annoying one liners, why bother with them at all?

 

[dennisr]

But you never add anything to any of the debates (or very rarely), just one liners. If you think the threads are nothing of value why spend your time putting up boring and annoying one liners, why bother with them at all?

Exactly - one has to ask why you bother poster - if its all so hopeless like?*

* the poster 'analysis' was also wrong but thats another thing

 

[cockneyrebel]

I was referring to Donna not to posterxxx!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But you never add anything to any of the debates (or very rarely), just one liners. If you think the threads are nothing of value why spend your time putting up boring and annoying one liners, why bother with them at all?

Because sometimes the observation that a debate is lacking in worth is, in fact, worth making.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Because sometimes the observation that a debate is lacking in worth is, in fact, worth making.

Not if it's over and over and over. This is a web board and of no real importance. If you don't think threads are of worth, why not just not post on them rather than disrupt them with continual one liners?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Not if it's over and over and over.

But "over and over and over" is what you do. Same accusations, same shouting at one another, same denunciations. It makes leftwing politics a snake pit, a small club for aggressive people, designed to keep other people away rather than attract them. And that's what I'm against. It's not your private club.

 

[cockneyrebel]

But "over and over and over" is what you do. Same accusations, same shouting at one another, same denunciations. It makes leftwing politics a snake pit, a small club for aggressive people, designed to keep other people away rather than attract them. And that's what I'm against. It's not your private club.

But this is just a web board that has no significance on wider life. U75 isn't a private club and has no impact on whether "leftwing politics are a snake pit, a small club for aggressive people, designed to keep other people away rather than attract them" (and incidently I agree with some of your criticisms of the left, but think that the wider situation has far more to do with why the left is so tiny, but the kinda things you talk about don't help either).

Even in terms of the web boards you're not actually achieving anything, you're just putting up one liners that people find annoying but largely ignore. If you want to try and change the left get involved in an organisation, or a trade union or a community campaign. But putting up endless sarcastic one liners on threads on U75 does nothing other than disrupt the threads, whether you like them or not.

On the other hand if it makes you happy, then carry on I suppose. Although it's a bit annoying I wouldn't want to take one of your pleasures in life away

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Even in terms of the web boards you're not actually achieving anything

Well, it is possible that I may induce some people to think about what they look like from outside the snakepit. Which would be good.

 

[poster342002]

Aaannnnyway - back to the thead's subject...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Well, it is possible that I may induce some people to think about what they look like from outside the snakepit. Which would be good.

This is U75. Have you ever acheived that outcome, I very much doubt it. So all you end up doing is disrupting threads, snake pit or otherwise.

Also as dennisr has pointed out U75 is actually far more dominated by cynical do nothings than people from far left groups.

From that point of view why not get out and actually do something, rather than just criticising?

 

[poster342002]

Also as dennisr has pointed out U75 is actually far more dominated by cynical do nothings than people from far left groups.

From that point of view why not get out and actually do something, rather than just criticising?

Perhaps because we've tried and failed? Perhaps because we've been there, done that, and it's dawned on us that we've got NO result from 30 years of banging our heads against the wall - and that NO-ONE is backing us up?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

From that point of view why not get out and actually do something, rather than just criticising?

Do I actually do nothing then? Would you know that?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Do I actually do nothing then? Would you know that?

Well from what I've seen on here and the little bit I saw of your blog I took it that you didn't really do much political activity. Look I don't wanna keep having a dig at you, I'm sure you're a nice bloke, and will leave it there, it's just that I found/find the one liners don't really add anything to debate.

By the way I read a bit on your blog ages ago where you spoke about how hard it is when time after time your hopes are dashed and despite that you keep on hoping. But because you don't get to the frame of mind where you lose all expectations set backs still hurt. I found it very moving.

I also fully understand your infuriation with the left and all the in fighting and denunciations.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well from what I've seen on here and the little bit I saw of your blog I took it that you didn't really do much political activity.

Ina formal sense, i.e. attending meetings and so on, I don't do any at all: that was a deliberate decision I took a couple of years ago, which living abroad in a small town makes quite easy to stick to. In terms of, shall we say, the defence and propgation of socialist ideas, I think I still do a fair bit and conceivably do it quite well.

But it really is several steps back every time people start shouting at one another, whenever there's sectarian infighting or SWP-obsession or mutual accusations. It's easy to say that, of course: it's probably only because I'm distant from that (in more senses than one) that I'm able to keep out of it. Easier for me to have perspective. But I'm sure that you cannot attract people by repelling them, even if you're right.

 

[brasicritique]

this whole thread is a waste of time It is up to people and 80% of political urbanites live on planet 1980 as does the left by left i mean SWP respect GG etc you all burnt your bridges in the 70s/80s when you blamed the the working class for everything even wanting there own home made them thatcherite. your chickens are now coming home to roost . You always see the working class and other groups as there to serve you its like you expect them to be doing your bidding and fighting your courses why? why should they? You only need to see how people like treelover get flamed by moderators who see themselves as progressive to understand that the left/liberal whatever functions as part of the system that oppres'es people.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Didn't know you live abroad, where abouts?

But I'm sure that you cannot attract people by repelling them

As said I'm sympathetic to many of your criticisms of the left.

 

[dennisr]

Trouble is, the TUs themselves are now an isolated, marginalised irrelavance to most people. Empty vessels run by generals with no armies.

I said I'd come back to you with some examples but this article summarises it better than I could.

Its a report from the recent TUC conference - about the gulf opening up between union leaders and union members:

TUC conference - public-sector pay - Workers defy Brown
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/502/index.html?id=pp1853.htm
(written by one of the key leaders of the car workers movement in the 70s).

Part of the article draws on the examples of the likes of the Remploy struggle (one of the few to have ben mentioned on these p+p boards). Here is more on what is going on in the dispute:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/502/index.html?id=pp1853.htm

or we could look at the continuing movement in defence of the nhs:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/502/index.html?id=np1859.htm

or even at the local level - one recent successful campaign in Huddersfield (against nursery closure):
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/502/index.html?id=np1861.htm

or the ongoing Burslem campaign against victimisation of postal workers:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/502/index.html?id=np1857.htm

thats just from this weeks paper - and does not cover all that is going on

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Didn't know you live abroad, where abouts?

As indicated on this posting....

 

[cockneyrebel]

As indicated on this posting....

Good post dennisr, there are struggles going on all over the country every day. Maybe some have despaired but why do they have to push their despair onto everyone else? Is it to make themselves feel better that they've given up?

At the end of the day if people have got nothing to say but negativity and cynicism sometimes it is far better to say nothing at all. Where I work there is one bloke was involved in the far left (went out to Nicaragua to work with the Sandinistas I think) but has now pretty much given on doing political stuff and is quite cynical and down beat about everything. But what he never does is try and put others off or make them feel that what they're doing is a waste of time, indeed he says fair play. While he might have become burnt out, fair play to the bloke at least he doesn't try and pull everyone down with him.