cockneyrebel
New Member
Well there is no reason you have to do anything. But it helps debate and also leads to things being more constructive.
Again, if that's the case, what do you suggest as a positive alternative?
The left ... continued ..
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
Well there is no reason you have to do anything. But it helps debate and also leads to things being more constructive.
Again, if that's the case, what do you suggest as a positive alternative?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
cockneyrebel said:
Not doing the same as a start.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Well you've said that already. Aren't you a member of the Anarchist Federation and a supporter of the IWCA? Do you think those two organisations offer a positive alternative? You must have some positive suggestions?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, and you know full well what they are. What does that have to do with the left's repetition of the same mistakes over and over and just recasting them in slightly different forms?
You're still a trotskyist. You still call yourself that right? What does that mean?
You're still a trotskyist. You still call yourself that right? What does that mean?
Actually sadly much of it is, i have lost count of people posting on Guardian CIf who in one breath extol the virtues of hard working migrants and contrast them with indigenous 'doleys, layabouts', chavscum' etc. This to me is pretty dangerous and the idea that migration is apriori beneficial and with no problems(see tonights Newsnight) just makes the left look stupid and without direction.Of course one has to be careful and measured, but the idea that to talk about immigration is to open the gates to the far right is wrongheaded and nonsense, in fact imo, not discussing it causes much more harm.
btw,, does anyone know the attitudes of the Nordic left who are now quite strong, to mass migration.
btw,, does anyone know the attitudes of the Nordic left who are now quite strong, to mass migration.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
But on the other hand, the fact that I don't believe in either of these things doesn't mean I denounce them, or try and hound the people who do believe them. That would be exactly the approach I don't like.
These days I wonder if the conclusions we come to are often less important than the means by which we get there.
These days I wonder if the conclusions we come to are often less important than the means by which we get there.
dennisr
the acceptable face
butchersapron said:
Maybe if your wanted to spin your own pre-concieved viewpoint you could try and spin what was said in that way. A more pertinant point would be that those labour movement and union 'heads' are themselves shaped by the changed circumstances we all face - their own petty individual 'interests' tend to shape their particular response which is not the same as that of the rest of us. In different circumstances they would have moved in a different direction (I would agree most would still be incapable of drawing the necessary conclusions if that is part of the point you are trying to make - its not a major revelation, by the way). In those different cirumstances such people could have - despite themselves - moved in a completely different direction and possible have unleashed a very different power - one they could not control in the way they generally like to 'manage' their underlings.
I wasn't interested in pointing the finger at those folk - I was primarily pointing out that, as the accepted (in the eyes of most at the time) leaders they had a far greater role to play in the resulting disorientation of the majority of folk than the 'lefts' attacked in the OP.
I disagree that the 'lefts' are the 'swp' (that is the actual target that the OP is trying to target), I also disagree that the swp have played any real role in wider the social movements that have led us all to where we stand now.
In answer to your later post and question - there are plenty of historical instances where sections of the organised working class and sections of its 'leaders' have moved left as well as right. the splits in the social democratic movement in the wake of WW1 and the russian revolution for instance. The splits in nationalist movements to left as well as right in the breakup of the old colonial powers. At the moment - in the UK - i don't see any major movement independent of the established tu's so that is still the place to put across progressive ideas. It may well change in the future but I would not agree with isolating myself in the meantime
urbanrevolt
New Member
We have to base ourselves in the workers' organisations, in the trade unions at workplace level. Our leaders betray us not in the sense that they are necessarily different now than they were before but in the sense that they claim to be acting on our behalf but do nthing of the sort most of the time- acting behind closed doors, not implementing conference policy, not even conducting ballots most of the time, ignoring results or calling off action.
At my union meeting yesterday one meber who's new to the workplace and the union said why don't we just go on strike until we win? Some on here may dismiss this and indeed if only things were that simple but it's a good impulse and what we should say- and I did- is that is excatly what we need to do and to build up the confidence of members to do by holding workplace meetings, taking democratic votes on what we want to happen and getting ready to get to a point where people are ready to do just that.
We passed the following motion:
"Resolution passed by Bolton NUT Wednesday 20th September
1. Public Sector Pay
Bolton NUT reaffirms its opposition to the government's pay freeze for teachers, 2% for the next 3 years. We reject Gordon Brown's statment calling pun public setor workers to exercise pay discipline.
Bolton NUT welcomes the decision of the TUC to call a joint campiagn and co-ordinated industrial action across the public setor to defeat this pay freeze.
We note
- the action taken by the prion officers in the POA against a 2% limit
- the action taken by the RMT in defence of jobs and conditions
- the decision of Unison local government committee to reject 2.4% and request a ballot for action
Bolton NUT beleives that the NUT can and should build alliances with all these unions and others affected by the public sector pay freeze.
We note that our review body (STRB) is due to report in late October or early November and is likely to propose a 2% increase for the next three years.
We resolve to:
i) continue the campaign on pay amongst members
ii) encourage school groups to hold meetings and sign petitions
iii) work with other unions locally and NUT branches in the North-West in developing the campaign
iv) call on the NUT to ballot members for strike action on a timescale that would enable action to be taken this term."
Sure it has lots of limitationns but I think it's better than nothing and what we actually need to do coming out of this is workplace meetings, discussing tactics about what to do if our elected delegates (leaders) don't deliver- as they won't. At the best we'll get a ballot for a 1 day strike and may be- though I doubt it- even go on strike and possibly win an extra 1/2 % but probably not even that UNLESS activists kick up an almighty fuss and start doing something about it ourselves. The NUT admittedly is not a likely palce for this kick-off to start- CWU may be a possibility and it's not on the cards anythime soon but there are a lot of people who would be up for it I think. As yet a minority and we've got to any way we can spread thst message and debate what we can do to up the ante, whilst supporting those workers who are in struggle- for example we gave 3100 to the Karen Resissmann strike and people are taking away petitions for workplace collections. if anyone has better ideas let's hear them
At my union meeting yesterday one meber who's new to the workplace and the union said why don't we just go on strike until we win? Some on here may dismiss this and indeed if only things were that simple but it's a good impulse and what we should say- and I did- is that is excatly what we need to do and to build up the confidence of members to do by holding workplace meetings, taking democratic votes on what we want to happen and getting ready to get to a point where people are ready to do just that.
We passed the following motion:
"Resolution passed by Bolton NUT Wednesday 20th September
1. Public Sector Pay
Bolton NUT reaffirms its opposition to the government's pay freeze for teachers, 2% for the next 3 years. We reject Gordon Brown's statment calling pun public setor workers to exercise pay discipline.
Bolton NUT welcomes the decision of the TUC to call a joint campiagn and co-ordinated industrial action across the public setor to defeat this pay freeze.
We note
- the action taken by the prion officers in the POA against a 2% limit
- the action taken by the RMT in defence of jobs and conditions
- the decision of Unison local government committee to reject 2.4% and request a ballot for action
Bolton NUT beleives that the NUT can and should build alliances with all these unions and others affected by the public sector pay freeze.
We note that our review body (STRB) is due to report in late October or early November and is likely to propose a 2% increase for the next three years.
We resolve to:
i) continue the campaign on pay amongst members
ii) encourage school groups to hold meetings and sign petitions
iii) work with other unions locally and NUT branches in the North-West in developing the campaign
iv) call on the NUT to ballot members for strike action on a timescale that would enable action to be taken this term."
Sure it has lots of limitationns but I think it's better than nothing and what we actually need to do coming out of this is workplace meetings, discussing tactics about what to do if our elected delegates (leaders) don't deliver- as they won't. At the best we'll get a ballot for a 1 day strike and may be- though I doubt it- even go on strike and possibly win an extra 1/2 % but probably not even that UNLESS activists kick up an almighty fuss and start doing something about it ourselves. The NUT admittedly is not a likely palce for this kick-off to start- CWU may be a possibility and it's not on the cards anythime soon but there are a lot of people who would be up for it I think. As yet a minority and we've got to any way we can spread thst message and debate what we can do to up the ante, whilst supporting those workers who are in struggle- for example we gave 3100 to the Karen Resissmann strike and people are taking away petitions for workplace collections. if anyone has better ideas let's hear them
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
"We "have to" do this, we "have to" do that. People may decide to do a variety of things.urbanrevolt said:
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Donna Ferentes said:
Agreed. There is an enormous resource outside of the unions. Mothers, the retired, the unemployed - none of these have unions.
All out strike is not militant (archaic 20th century term) - a better phrase would be non-violent civil(ian) disobedience.
Militant is taking up arms - and is an alarmist term to use, and works against union members who need to garner wider popular support from society for their action.
cockneyrebel
New Member
What has it goe to do with it? Well I'm asking what new way the Anarchist Federation or IWCA have come out with? It seem to me that the former is saying the same as it ever has and the IWCA has just rehashed a load of strategies that have been tried time and time again and presenting it as something new. As said rather than just criticising why not suggest positive alternatives?
Once again agree with dennisr.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Followed up by.....
dennisr said:
so dennis you are saying that in no way do you think the lefts total inability to have anything to say on what ( rightly or wrongly ) many working class people are deeply concerned about has ANYTHING to do with why we are almost totally ignored???
and please you KNOw i am invoved in activity both in teh community and at work so your comment there was wrong
as others have said though mate ... something is NOT working is it??? it is therefore legit to .. at the very least on boards to have frank and open discussion of what that problem is
and immigration .. again .. yes mate .. it is the biggest socio-political phenomenum of recent times which is having a fundamenatl impact on peoples lives .. and people are saying this .. and the left are ignoring them .. or are patronising them by saying there are no issues but racism .. and then we wonder why the bnp are doing so well?????
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
You've quoted two passages which say the same thing as if they contradicted each other....cockneyrebel said:
cockneyrebel
New Member
Well no, you say you don't denounce this or that approach but in a round about way you're denouncing stuff all the time through unconstructive one liners.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Donna Ferentes said:
May be but is this a stylistic criticism or a logical one?
If we want to have a society based on working class people making our own decisions, a socialist society of equality and freedom, I'd say we pretty much do have to base ourselves on workers' organisations.
Of course you may not but many on here do want this whether they define themselves as trots, autonomist, anarchist, socialist in general- some don't and fiar enough but I wasn't talking to them.
If you're saying though it';s the style 'we have to' seeming bossy or putting people off you may have a point. I think we have to have a variety of styles- oh sorry I think we may choose different styles for different times and audineces, and see what works!
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
You don't really understand what "denounce" means, do you? And that's half the problem.cockneyrebel said:
cockneyrebel
New Member
You don't really understand taht it's "annoying" when people just keep putting up one line messages that disrupt threads, do you? And that's half the problem.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
No, I understand that you find me annoying, but I think this may be because I'm telling you something you don't want to hear. But that's different to denouncing people, y'see.
cockneyrebel
New Member
No you are annoying because you repetitively put up the same type of one liners over and over, because of your own political cynicism. It's nothing to do with what you're saying, as the one liners are neither in any way original or in any way interesting, y'see.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Then I am deeply sorry to be adding nothing of value to the fraternal, original and fruitful discussion that would otherwise obtain. 
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