'The left can no longer afford to bury the migration debate'
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
dennisr said:Er.. hang on... lets have a flick through...
urrr .... brown's expedient election climb down .. posties: determination to contuinue the battle ... ummm ... anti war right to protest ... any spare cash (drop in disposable income), retired and insolvant ... child poverty growing ...super rich, super 'donations' ... burmese students join london march ... widscale 1957, the lessons ... phewwww (bored now...) ... beat back the profiteers (privatisation of education) ... defend public services (fire service cuts) ...... postal workers defy royal mail attacks (+ a page of picket line round-ups) ... marching in support of the Burslem 12 ... 1917, 90th Anniversary (fancy theory page) ... the art of politics (art review) ... hummmpph ... Jupiters Dance (film review) ... scramble for profit (world bank policies) ... iraq - brown;s token gesture ... dafur ... national shop stewards meetings ... civil servants march against cut privatisation ... UCU pay ... save out post office (about saving post offices surprisingly....) ... bolton care workerrs fight on ... mmmmmm ...national nhs demo ....
nope, we clearly have* got our fingers on the immigration pulse this week matey - your point is clearly proven (i think?)
*ooops- edit "havent" not have
Please don't start writing like durutti02, dennisr. One Glenda Slag is already more than enough round here.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
That's an argument for forcing the bosses of those industries to pay higher wages - not an argument for allowing them to hire the cheapest possible labour from abroad.xenon_2 said:
Deareg said:
Bit of an oversimplification, but i know what you mean.
But of course migrants are going to get used in this way. An unregulated workforce becomes a bit of a nightmare for most people but some people are going to benefit from the free for all...
Deareg
Well-Known Member
tbaldwin said:
it is up to the government to regulate the workforce but history has shown us that they are never going to do it in a way that will benefit the workers, immigrants may benefit here even though they are on low wages, because compared to what they would be paid at home plus the exchange rate, it is a decent wage, they are still being exploted though, i don't think it was an over simplification either, with issues like this it is always the ones at the bottom of the shitheap who get the blame for making the world smell for those slightly further up
Agree with previous poster bosses/capital get the best deal out of immigration by paying crap wages. At the same time trying to decrease the wages of workers in general and hit the ability of the unions to build any fightback.
There are no borders for capital so there should be no limits for labour. Yes there are major difficulties in terms of maintaining public services with a growing population increased by the flow of immigrants.
But people can not have it both ways - economy grows due to immigration - lets attack the immigrants. With all the racist rants that come with this.
Maybe not a good example but the USA wealth was founded an a lot of immigration. This all needs an honest and clear discussion without the emotion of building a fortress Britian with all the borders closed.
There are no borders for capital so there should be no limits for labour. Yes there are major difficulties in terms of maintaining public services with a growing population increased by the flow of immigrants.
But people can not have it both ways - economy grows due to immigration - lets attack the immigrants. With all the racist rants that come with this.
Maybe not a good example but the USA wealth was founded an a lot of immigration. This all needs an honest and clear discussion without the emotion of building a fortress Britian with all the borders closed.
cockneyrebel said:
becuase,negatively, as with the existence of the CCCP up to the 8ts, the affect / existence of the far left taints all attempts to change the world .. there is rarely any progressive political action without the far left being involved at some stage for good and bad ..
and also, positively, the far left has many many good people in it .. but still see teh world thru the narrow leftist perspective .. i do do the somethng better you talk of .. but i also still think it importnat to address the left
Zeppo, the US's wealth was built on gangsterism, exploitation, iniatially slavery, its bizarre watching leftists supporting mass migration on grounds of national wealth, que bono, not me or people i know, the majority of people who are benefiting from the current waves of mass migration are bosses, those who have nannies, eat out and socialise a lot or have give up on DIY, so speak for yourself.
The debate's moved on. Having a problem with the way immigration is working is not the same as attacking immigrants FFS. Ignorant and racist fuckwhits will frame the argument in an idiology of Britain for the British. The far right will make plitical capital over unease regarding immigration. The agenda should not be their's. Don't let them have it.
FWIW the artical as linked up there ^ by Dennis in the Socialist, about this issue is spot on.
FWIW the artical as linked up there ^ by Dennis in the Socialist, about this issue is spot on.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
And the immigrants themselves, which is a pretty key issue. Unless they're only here to be a political football, of course.treelover said:
I broadly agree with dennisr's article too
dennisr
the acceptable face
Actually there is a good (at least practical) article in this weeks paper durritti (phew. that saved my commie glenda slag bacon) called "countering the race to the bottom" - I think that's a careful way to pose the question as the fella writing the article (site worker) has too: http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/508/index.html?id=pp2117.htm
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Wealth that has not benefited those at the bottom of US society (who are themselves in permanent competition with immigrants) in the slightest.Zeppo said:
Not a good advert for your position, is it?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Well, corect me if I'm wrong, but zeppo appeared to be arguing in favour of immigration on the basis of how much wealth it generates for the economy - to which I was pointing out that those at the bottom get nothing out of this arrangement (and may even suffer as a result of it).dennisr said:
dennisr
the acceptable face
poster342002 said:
I did not get the impression he was arguing for or against with that point simply that it is a normal part of the way the system functions (as are your points - although they add nothing to his)
You arn't going to stop immigration, and if you did it would not solve your problems. Thats why folk with more than two brain cells functioning are arguing for unity between workers to cut across the attempts to divide us and enforce a 'race to the bottom'.
its nothing new - the working class movement and solidarity was built in the UK as well as the US on cutting across attempts to keep us at each others throats rather than the bosses throats.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Yossarian said:
Agreed. Those who can afford it will fuck off, the rest of us will just get poorer.
Yossarian said:
The demand for housing with 2 million new immigrants in the UK. Has pushed up the price of housing.
Part of Gordon Browns economic miracle relied on the inceased demand,pushing up property prices.
I can't see the property bubble bursting spectacularly now just levelling off. ( along with levels of immigration)
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
taffboy gwyrdd said:
A friend my mines Dad came over the Ireland in the 50s. He was so grateful for being given an opportunity to escape Eire and he always voted Tory thereafter. Of course, that changed in the 80s, but an intereresting little story nevertheless. I would imagine that a lot of migrants will be voting, like my friend's dad, for the party that they percieve has given them a chance to "escape" from their country of origin.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
tbaldwin said:
Overwhelmingly, I'd say supply not meeting demand and 'buy to let' have had the most significant affect on house prices.
Some economists have suggested the housing market is overvalued by 40 percent. It's a long way down if true?
I also see the liklihood of immigration levelling off in the short-term.
However, the UK used to have 16 workers to every pensioner, now it's approaching two workers to every pensioner.
Think we'll need more immigrants Baldwin to pay for the twenty year retirement UK workers expect?bluestreak said:
It's not generally the wealthier people who need to go abroad to find work though, is it? During the last recession there were loads of people from the poorer areas of the UK who went to Germany. to find work - and there's still plenty of 'economic migrants' from Liverpool in Jersey & Devon, etc...
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Divisive Cotton said:
An interesting counter to the argument that the 'immigrants are being imported so that Labour can have extra votes' falls down when you look at the fact that a lot of the current crop of immigrants come from socially conservative countries like Poland.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
KeyboardJockey said:
And Jamaica and Nigeria aren't socially conservative countries?
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