The Last Jedi : BEWARE SPOILERS YOU SHOULD

Discussion in 'books, films, TV, radio & writing' started by ruffneck23, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Orang Utan

    Orang Utan Sub-Sub-Librarian

    it has been very well received everywhere and the only people who seem to object to it is the imprinted 40 something geeknerds.
     
  2. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    55% on Rotten Tomatoes. A lot of the audience objects to the crap bits (mostly Poe’s stupidity for me).
     
  3. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    It was certainly well received by both me and the friend I saw it with, but we still both came out saying, “if you can destroy whole fleets with an object ramming them at hyper speed, why not just do that all the time? And why not do it straight away? And why did Lorna Dern have to personally pilot that massive ship in any case? Don’t they have autopilot?”

    Well received doesn’t mean you don’t notice massive internal inconsistencies.
     
    BigTom, Beats & Pieces and emanymton like this.
  4. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    I finally saw it, overall enjoyed (some great touched, lightsaber stabiness, good if nonsensical space combat. Porgs nakedly shoehorned in with no real subplot except 'I am a cute toy'

    finn spends the entire film shouting again. Oh leiea as SPAAAACE GHOOOOST was good when you thought she'd died in the blast with RIP ackbar

    When ren held his hand out to rey I immediatly went there and hoped their union would be a herald of balance, the yin yang and all that one. Only they didn't go there (they did in my head) instead Luke got his balls out of retirement and saved the day before going of into force ghostland. Also: captain phasma's unearned level of Boss Deathness was funny. Classic baddie mistake 'No shootings to good for them!' yeah excellent last words.
     
    Lazy Llama likes this.
  5. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

  6. ATOMIC SUPLEX

    ATOMIC SUPLEX Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3

    Of all the shit they left in, but then they left this out?
    Phasma is a pointless plot point that should have been expanded to tie Finn's past role. Less fuckin porgs and Poe . . . And yeah the plot was stooopid. I'm not in love with the original star wars but the lesson there is to keep it simple, not ram it full of crap until the holes and bad stitching start to show.
     
  7. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    That was my reaction - this is interesting and gives some insight in to Phasma as a character beyond being a silver suit / toy. Increasingly it becomes harder to work out quite what Disney is about regarding Star Wars.

    :(
     
  8. Rosemary Jest

    Rosemary Jest Wrong and Unstable

    Just watched it and my verdict is... shite.

    Not as good as episode 1, 2 or 3.

    Liked the cute alien things though, and the silvery space dogs. :thumbs:

    But by christ, the acting. Oh, the acting. It seemed more like a Flash Gordon sequel, but with worse acting and shitter soundtrack.
     
    PursuedByBears likes this.
  9. PursuedByBears

    PursuedByBears Go stick your head in a pig

    Given time to reflect, i think that both rogue one and the last jedi were terrible . There, I've finally admitted it.
     
    mwgdrwg and Rosemary Jest like this.
  10. T & P

    T & P |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    Even though they’re obviously not the first films to be divisive, i cannot think of any other films that have proved so massively Marmitesque as the new SW films. Not only that, but there isn’t even much consensus amongst any group of people who might dislike one film and like the others.

    I’ve meet people who loved Rogue One, didn’t like ep VII but liked VIII. Others liked RO, liked VII and hated VIII. Others likes/ disliked all three. And similar splits amongst those who hated RO about their opinions of VII & VIII. It is quite fascinating...
     
  11. tommers

    tommers Your disco needs you

    Finally got round to watching it. It was a good spectacle. There were some really cool bits. Like it looked fucking lovely at times.

    Bombs in space was stupid. Poe is a fucking idiot. The mechanic woman was very multi-talented (tracking device expert, pilot, weird horse expert etc etc.).

    But ultimately who cares? I mean RoTJ is fucking nonsense from start to finish. It was a very enjoyable 2 1/2 hours.
     
  12. ferrelhadley

    ferrelhadley These violent delights have violent ends.

    FWIW (and to raise an old thread) I think this is the movie that broke the franchise.
    It broke the character of the keystone character, Luke, it broke the universes own unwritten rule in a way that completely invalidates the plot of all the previous films. These combined with the total lack of any coherent narrative or character arcs between the films means that is may be a fun film to watch but it has trashed being a franchise movie.

    First up Luke was the centre of the first trilogy, his hope and willingness to believe in the redemption of his father are a massive part of modern pop culture. To have the whole tossing his light sabre over his back, trying to kill Kylo, not giving a toss older self turn up on screen for this film, this is a huge breach in character continuity that had no real dramatic purpose. It was a fan fiction level character shift.
    Then the whole hyperspace ships can blow up mega Star Destroyers. So every Death Star could have been taken out by an X Wing in hyperspace? Every big space battle against a super big ship could have been won by punting a ship in hyperspeed straight at it? All the convoluted plots to deal with mega space ship plots are now rendered nonsense.

    These show that the creators had no real interest in maintaining continuity of the rules of the universe or the characters motivation.

    On smaller points Rey and Finns character development. It has no arc, no dramatic drive and again more akin to fan fiction than something developed by professionals. Luke arrived in New Hope as a raw farm boy who could only watch Obi Wan die in his fight, he then tried to fight Vader in Empire and got a serious arse kicking, but by Jedi had learnt enough to earn his place in the main fight though lost that. Rey is kicking Snokes body guards with like her second go on a light sabre and Finn kills Phasma with ease in the same film. Both are like "yay I suddenly have ninja skills because reasons". Finn stars by having a break in conditioning because his buddy dies. Then spends two movies cheering as he kills loads of people just like his buddy.

    There are no character arcs, no continuity and nothing be rehashed plot ideas from other movies.

    A lot of people enjoyed it as a stand alone film, that is cool. Its there to be enjoyed. But its total lack of respect for the films that went before it and for any effort to maintain good story telling rules mean a significant number of long term fans have now checked out.

    Compare and contrast with the MCU. There they try to ensure characters are consistent between films, the laws of the fantasy universe are retained and the audience is respected.

    But hey ho, big world, lots of opinions and a great many will continue to buy tickets.

    TL;DNR: JJ Abrams is a clown.
     
    mojo pixy, xenon, kabbes and 5 others like this.
  13. emanymton

    emanymton A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.

    I agree with most of this but JJ Abrams had very little involvement with this film.
     
    Lazy Llama, T & P and ska invita like this.
  14. T & P

    T & P |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    Abrams’s TFA was a satisfying nostalgia trip but ultimately a largely empty homage/ remake of A New Hope with little originality.

    The Last Jedi was a mess on many levels. I don’t necessarily agree with some of the reasons why people hate it, but it for me the plot holes have become too much of an obstacle, even though i’m usually more forgiving than most about plot holes in films.

    Another major gripe for me is that we’re two thirds into the so long awaited sequels to the original trilogy, and i’ve no idea where the story is going and little hope the conclusion will have answered any questions or delivered a worthy tale of what happened after ROTJ.

    This is why I think Rogue One is not just the best SW film Disney has produced, but the best SW film since the original trilogy, and the only one worthy of standing alongside ithem. It is absurdly underrated IMO.
     
  15. Rosemary Jest

    Rosemary Jest Wrong and Unstable

    It was shit. :thumbs:
     
    ruffneck23 likes this.
  16. Reno

    Reno The In Kraut

    I thought it as great. :thumbs:
     
  17. krtek a houby

    krtek a houby how's it going to end?

    I love how the older Luke became bitter and jaded. He was always impulsive as well, running off during the middle of his training with Yoda and naively thinking he could go up against Darth Vader, letting his emotions get the better of him. Then he fucks up his nephew's training. Not surprising he pissed off to the Skelligs.

    An excellently realised example of when life's adventure doesn't turn out the way you think it will.
     
  18. Reno

    Reno The In Kraut

    I’ve never been a huge Star Wars fan exactly because it is such a simplistic heroes and villains universe. The Last Jedi was the first Star Wars film to surprise me because major characters are finally allowed to be flawed. Luke turns out not the lily white hero he was till then and Kylo Ren is the most complex villain of the franchise. The whole subplot with Laura Dern was excellent and dared to make this trilogy’s Han Solo look like a misogynist prat.

    The film also looks just fantastic, it’s clearly the product and of a film maker who was allowed to bring his vision to this, rather than an anonymous franchise obligation. Not saying the film is perfect, there are structural problems but the online hate campaign by fans because “it broke rules”, because it introduced moral shades of grey and because it upped minority representations is everything wrong with online fan culture.
     
  19. S☼I

    S☼I Are they supposed to be as sick as you and me?

    Star Wars films make me feel like the kid I was when I was a kid watching Star Wars films. The new ones do that. Good enough for me.
     
    tommers, Lazy Llama and krtek a houby like this.
  20. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    Moral shades of grey are good. We didn’t get them in Last Jedi though. Everything is still as black and white as it ever was. Kylo is not complex, he’s a bad guy overthrowing his master and trying to take over the universe. Lorna Dunn is not complex, she’s just a textbook example of a bad boss who tells underlings to ignore problems they see because they have to trust she has a super secret master plan. Nobody is complicated in this film.
     
    emanymton likes this.
  21. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank We kill the flame

    I admire Johnson for realising that the only thing to do with the series artistically is to fuck it up. I also see TLJ as a direct dig at JJ Abrams for his fanfic installment and his use of Big Questions in lieu of an actual story.

    Look at Rian Johnson's previous films. They're not universally great but they all attempt something new. Abrams by contrast has built a career on going over old ground. Super 8 is maybe his best movie, but perhaps only because he managed to copy from more than one source.
     
  22. ruffneck23

    ruffneck23 Well-Known Member

    Im not angry anymore but it was awful imo...
     
    Rosemary Jest likes this.
  23. Reno

    Reno The In Kraut

    So that whole Luke-thing which wound up fans so much passed you by ?

    I'm not getting the "Lorna Dunn" joke but Admiral Holdo isn't a "bad boss" she is Navy. Since when does a military leader have to share classified information with a recently disgraced hot-head of a pilot who they have good reasons to distrust ? In which war movie or real life situation would that be considered good strategy ? I believe that if the character hadn't been a woman, we wouldn't get endless YouTube videos and online rants, how she is the most hated character in the Star Wars universe.

    Anyways, these are circular discussions and they drag on forever. I'm not invested enough in Star Wars to spend a whole day on this.

    The main thing I don't get, its just a fucking movie. Why do fans online (not here of course) threaten critics who liked the film with death and rape threats ? Why did they hound an Asian actress who starred in the movie, off twitter with racist abuse ? If it pissed off those assholes, then that alone makes me think that the movie did something right.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    seventh bullet and CNT36 like this.
  24. ruffneck23

    ruffneck23 Well-Known Member

    because people are cunts when they get hold of a keyboard
     
  25. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    A movie isn’t good just because it pissed off twats.

    Luke’s disillusionment was fine by me, but I didn’t particularly enjoy the way it was played for laughs.

    The Plinkett review was, as always, spot on. The problem was that the movie was essentially a comedy farce and the tone of that didn’t at all fit the subject matter.
     
    emanymton likes this.
  26. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    And I said Lorna Dunn instead of Laura Dern because my brain went a bit mental.
     
  27. Reno

    Reno The In Kraut

    A comedy farce ? We must have watched different films. Like all Star Wars movies this was also aimed at kids and they all include moments of levity. To claim that Luke's failing was played for laughs is absurd.
     
  28. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    The beats were all farcical. I’d link to the Plinkett review but I’m guessing you don’t want to watch an hour long dissection of it. But he’s spot on, the movie follows the structure to the letter of something like National Lampoons Family Vacation.
     
  29. Reno

    Reno The In Kraut

    Thanks but I've really got better things to do today. I'm already suspicious of someone who takes this much time nitpicking a movie to death. I see more value in spending time a (video) essay which makes you appreciate a film more, rather than one that is fanning the flames of hate for an hour.

    The fanboy arguments against the film are always the same. When you point out the flaws in their reasoning, like you (treating Admiral Holdo's motivation like she's a manager at McDonalds), they to resort "the tone" which is a highly subjective matter. Don't fool yourself that this apparently having the structure of "something like National Lampoons Family Vacation" is objective analysis or that matters like "tone" can be boiled down to an exact science.

    Anyways, I'm off to the gym... :)
     
  30. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    He’s not a fanboy. He’s just a film reviewer, and a really good one. His objections to the film are not based around the usual fanboy guff. His dissection is around the structure and tone of the screenplay itself. A farce is when the protagonists do things that are idiotic for no good reason, like when Chevy Chase decides to buy a shit car in the face of it being obvious to the viewer that the car is shit in Family Vacation. In Last Jedi, equivalent idiotic things happen regularly, like Finn and Rose deciding to park on the beach on a world where it is obvious they will face consequences for this, even though they are supposed to be on a covert mission. It’s not like that decision doesn’t matter either, it is fundamental to the plot, just like the poor car purchase is in Family Vacation
     
    emanymton likes this.

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