The Kinks Shit Hot/Shit

[butchersapron]

Aside from the fact that Link Wray had already done this a decade before, how does that man that ray then wrote "the 'attack' and phrasing" though?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Aside from the fact that Link Wray had already done this a decade before, how does that man that ray then wrote "the 'attack' and phrasing" though?

He did it on the piano. You can have attack and phrasing on the piano you know.
They were two kids experimenting with a sound one of the brothers had come up with on his guitar, I never said it was revolutionary or original. Could have been two kids with their first delay pedal or anything. "aw no, we can't experiment with this because pink floyd used one before us".
I don't get your point here?

 

[butchersapron]

My point is that the "'attack' and phrasing" seem - being generous - to be precisely what Ray cannot claim to have written, as opposed to your claim that he did in fact write "the 'attack' and phrasing".

 

[butchersapron]

Every kinks thread anywhere ever ends in this argument or some variant of it.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Yes you can have attack and phrasing on the piano - but not like on a guitar. Nothing like in fact.

And yeah - Link Wray was first with the distortion thing, but 'you really got me' used it in a differnt way - the insistant, staccato, repetition coupled with distortion was like the sound the electric guitar had been waiting for. Link Wray plays 'louie louie' if you will!

 

[danny la rouge]

Humm, I play both and I would say that's a load of balls. Not sure how you could interpret a straight major chord in any other way. Anyway, Dave said Ray wrote the riff, as does Ray and his 100% writing credit on the song.

I play both, too. What's balls about it? They're different instruments. And what's more, you do play major chords differently on the guitar. A standard non-inverted F major on piano is 1st, 3rd, 5th (maybe 1st again). On guitar, it's 1st, 5th, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 1st.

But it sounds to me like Dave plays the F-G-F-G riff without 3rds. And, as has been said, phrasing, rhythm, attack all come into it.

Also, writing credits seldom included riff writing in the 60s. George Harrison wrote loads of the riffs on Lennon/McCartney songs, and they're often the most recognisable bits of the track.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

Mick Avory was the real talent.

 

[danny la rouge]

Mick Avory was the real talent.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

My point is that the "'attack' and phrasing" seem - being generous - to be precisely what Ray cannot claim to have written, as opposed to your claim that he did in fact write "the 'attack' and phrasing".

I don't quite understand, why exactly can't Ray have written the attack and phrasing? Why could he not have played something on the piano and Dave copied it? Christ, i'm no Ray fan (or kinks fan) but I don't seem why just playing what someone else played on a different instrument warrants such merit. Not even Dave does, he says he just copied Ray. Are you saying that attack, swing, pizzicato, or muting somehow not part of a score. I honestly don't grasp what you are getting at.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Also, writing credits seldom included riff writing in the 60s. George Harrison wrote loads of the riffs on Lennon/McCartney songs, and they're often the most recognisable bits of the track.

Riffs don't even necessarily come into publishing rights these days either, you would defiantly still have to make a point of standing up for your credit.
Anyway Dave said Ray wrote it and has quibbled over any other kinks song he feels (and probably quite rightly) he has rights to.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't quite understand, why exactly can't Ray have written the attack and phrasing? Why could he not have played something on the piano and Dave copied it?

It was the way he copied it that makes the difference. He doesn't just strum the chords, he plays the sequence in a distinctive way, and he doesn't just play major chords, he chooses to play chords without 3rds (so they aren't really major chords); in short, he makes the signature sound of the song.

He does the same on Tired Of Waiting. He's only playing partial arpeggios from the chords Ray wrote, but in a way that was so distinctive that the record company weren't sure they should release the song - initially recorded with just Ray strumming chords - with Dave's guitar part on it. It takes both brothers to make the whole. That's the point.

 

[butchersapron]

There is no such thing as interpretation- or invention, or imagination danny, don't be daft. It's only ink on a thing. Not that either could read music

AS, why the fuSk are you in music you haggard old energyless witch?

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

It was the way he copied it that makes the difference. He doesn't just strum the chords, he plays the sequence in a distinctive way, and he doesn't just play major chords, he chooses to play chords without 3rds (so they aren't really major chords); in short, he makes the signature sound of the song.

He does the same on Tired Of Waiting. He's only playing partial arpeggios from the chords Ray wrote, but in a way that was so distinctive that the record company weren't sure they should release the song - initially recorded with just Ray strumming chords - with Dave's guitar part on it. It takes both brothers to make the whole. That's the point.

Whoa ok. It's just not that important to me. I think we are talking cross purposes anyway. I just think that the basic song was laid out by Ray and I (let's say 'personally') don't count minor interpretations of how chords are played to really warrant a song writing credit.

Actually, I don't even know if I agree 100% with myself there. I was just satisfied that Dave said he copied Rays part and that he said Ray wrote the song.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

AS, why the fuSk are you in music you haggard old energyless witch?

I'm just in it for the money and the ladies of course.

 

[danny la rouge]

I was just satisfied that Dave said he copied Rays part and that he said Ray wrote the song.

Ray did write the song. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that that doesn't mean Ray is wholly responsible for the riff.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Ray did write the song. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that that doesn't mean Ray is wholly responsible for the riff.

Yeah like I said we are (half) talking at cross purposes.
A sequence of chord stabs is now a 'riff'?

I'm no Ray fan, I'm no Dave fan, I'm not that interested in most of the Kinks. I'm not sure why this has somehow gone so far.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure why this has somehow gone so far.

I hadn't realised it had gone far. I thought we were having musical differences. Isn't that what the forum's for?

I thought it was taken in good part, and we walked away smiling. Mind you, I also thought that when I stood laughing and pointing at my brother's CD collection a few years ago. We haven't spoken since.

 

[audiotech]

It's written a bit like a childs school essay about what he did in the summer holidays. He is constantly trying to make out how cool he is but just comes off at a real twat. His ranting about Ray and his controlling behavior in the band may well be true but in the context of the rest of the book (where Dave is a bell end) it just sounds like he is very bitter and twisted.
I love the climax where Ray starts channeling magical spiritual energy & communicating with UFOs.

Dig the intro.

http://www.davedavies.com/

 

[Kaka Tim]

A sequence of chord stabs is now a 'riff'?

er.... yes. A riff is a short, repeated phrase.

 

[danny la rouge]

er.... yes. A riff is a short, repeated phrase.

There's an argument to be made that the motif in YRGM is actually a vamp. I'd say it has all the attributes of a riff, though.

 

[Kaka Tim]

A vamp?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

A riff

 

[Schmetterling]

Living on a thin line!!!!