The Jenkins/Johnson Proposal: AV+

[tbaldwin]

Like Australia, House of Reps has however many MPs elected to single member constituencies by Instant Runoff Preferential, and the Senate elected by STV with each state electing 6 senators at a time


I like the idea, but I'd rather have the house of commons elected by STV as well, say 3 or 4 member constituencies (with a few ones and twos in outlying areas) I don't have any love for the AV+ system, even if it seems to be working adequately in Scotland and Wales
what say you?

I voted for both FPTP and PR because i think both have merit. And a second chamber by PR would address the fact that minor parties like the Greens and UKIP and hopefully a left wing one sometime would stand much more chance of being represented under PR.
But i still think its good for MPS to be slected on a first past the post basis by local constituencies.
I was interested to see Ben Bradshaw one of the non disgrced Labour MPs come out strongly last week and call for a fully elected house of lords. I hope in all the fuss about expenses people dont forget that we need constitutional change that goes a lot deeper than arguing about a few greedy tossers fiddling their expenses.

 

[tangentlama]

Is AV+ the same system used to choose the NUS NEC?
If so, it sucks.

 

[kyser_soze]

One key thing to remember about the Australian implementation of STV is that they also have compulsory voting laws, which ensure 95%+ turnouts, so the proportional bit is generally speaking propotional to the voting views of the whole population. PR voting on 70-80% turnouts is still not technically proportional, so you've got to build something in to even make PR work properly.

Altho on the whole I agree with Nemo - bit multi-seat disctricts with STV.

I also thought at the weekend that given that the current situation with general legitimacy actually has more then just constitutional wonks getting interested in the actual voting system, that perhaps a a party that was only set up to get the voting system changed over before calling another election might gain some traction...

 

[tangentlama]

The confidential inquiry report into the "nearly disastrous" trip in August 1966 identifies the future foreign secretary as a factional careerist who, as a 19-year-old Leeds University student, was prepared to put his own political future before anything else, according to a file released yesterday at the public record office.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/07/uk.highereducation

 

[Rod Sleeves]

If we absolutely must have parliamentary democracy instead of workers councils, and popular local assemblies I think STV like in Ireland with anything from 5 or 6 members per constituency for urban areas to 2 or 3 for rural seats.

I think there should also be recall elections if 10% or more of constituents demand one, and strict wage and expenses caps.

I don't think keeping the link between MPs and constituencies is much to worry about though, it doesn't seem to stop them being cunts at the moment.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

PR voting on 70-80% turnouts is still not technically proportional, so you've got to build something in to even make PR work properly.

It is proportional by votes, though. You can argue that those who don't vote forego their right to be counted. It's not as though, in a more or less fully literate country like the UK, there can be any but an extremely tiny number of people who would like to vote but for whatever reason cannot.

 

[tangentlama]

Only poll should read 'I prefer', not 'I want', because they're all 'lesser evils' since none achieve democracy through direct means, i.e. actually being bothered to inform every citizen about decision-making processes and enabling them to participate fully.

SO, I prefer Proportional Representation (PR) to Alternative Vote Plus (AV+), but I don't want for either. There may be a more effective way of ensuring that citizens are fairly represented by politicians.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's not as though, in a more or less fully literate country like the UK, there can be any but an extremely tiny number of people who would like to vote but for whatever reason cannot.

Sadly adult literacy in the UK is not a given in some areas.

 

[Santino]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/07/uk.highereducation

Equally:

he was out to cause a minor political scandal to embarrass the then rightwing establishment leadership of the National Union of Students....Mr Straw also took the opportunity to meet Salvadore Allende, who had been the defeated Marxist presidential candidate in 1964.

Other shocking revelations include the fact the some 19 year-old students were 'immature'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sadly adult literacy in the UK is not a given in some areas.

Presumably you're referring to pockets of illiteracy such as Bangladeshi women in the East End. That is still relatively tiny, though – certainly less than 1 per cent.

 

[kyser_soze]

No, I'm referring to the literacy problems faced by a huge swathe of the adult population:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/29/literacy-numeracy-skills

Especially among those who potentially have the most to gain by actively engaging with politics.

Some more stats:

Literacy levels among 16 to 65-year-olds
Level % number
Entry level 1 or below 3 1.1m
Entry level 2 2 0.6m
Entry level 3 11 3.5m
(All entry level or below) 16 5.2m
Level 1 40 12.6m
Level 2 or above 44 14.1m

What do the 'levels' mean?

Basically, these stats from 2003 indicate that 16% of the adult population of the UK have the literacy level expected of an 11 year old or younger. and that 1.8mn (3%) have a reading age of 7 of less.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, I'm referring to the literacy problems faced by a huge swathe of the adult population:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/29/literacy-numeracy-skills

Especially among those who potentially have the most to gain by actively engaging with politics.

The point being that many of those who don't vote are in fact, through poor literacy levels and other factors, not able to actively engage enough to make them consider it worth voting?

If that is your point, it is a fair one.

 

[kyser_soze]

It is indeed, and yes it is. Also that about 1/5th of the UKs adult population have the reading comprehension of 11 year olds or younger - I'd say that would lead to a serious deficit in ability to take part in elections.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Constituency representatives should be unafilliated to political parties, or at least able to vote freely on absolutely everything without fear or expulsion from their party. The structure of party politics as it currently exists is fundamentally undemocratic and before we quibble about voting systems we should look at dismantling the stranglehold party leaders have over parliament.

That said, I have my doubts about this AV+ thingy. For a start I can't help but think that the value of, for example, a single person's third preference vote will depend upon how many candidates are running in a particular constituency. I'd prefer something simpler, like the voting system for the U75 photo competition (except unlike the photo comp there should be no requirement to place second or third preference votes if you don't wish to). There's also something fundamentally wrong with a democratic system that many people may not fully understand.

We need a separate executive and legislature IMO, with every member of the cabinet elected individually and separately from consituency elections. Both cabinet members and MPs should be subject to recall by public vote at any point in their term.

e2a: local council leaders should be directly elected as well, not just picked from the biggest party on the council.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is indeed, and yes it is. Also that about 1/5th of the UKs adult population have the reading comprehension of 11 year olds or younger - I'd say that would lead to a serious deficit in ability to take part in elections.

Yes, I agree. However, countries like India, with large numbers of totally illiterate voters, manage to mobilise many of them. Here, where the majority of the functionally illiterate will at least have access to TV and radio news, the lack of engagement can't solely be down to poor literacy.

That said (and cross-cultural comparisons like mine above can be misleading), yours is a good point.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Actually the best voting system would be to have a massive single multi member constituency elected on a yes/no basis. Essentially anyone who wants to stand for the UK parliament can stand, pays a £10 registration fee and gets a free blog, and the right to an internet video broadcast. Then via electronic polling over say a two week period everyone gets to vote yes or no, for as many candidates as there are, in theory that would mean that if there were 7000 candidates you would have 7000 votes, in practice you would only really vote yes or no for your absolute favourite/least favourite candidates, then any candidate with more than a certain threshold of yes votes once no votes are deducted would get to take their seat, meaning the size of parliament would depend on the number of people thought worthy of sitting in it. Obviously the threshold would have to be quite high.

You could still get MPs with local links as well, as concentrating all your campaigning in one area would probably pay off, if enough people care about local links.

It would be a bit chaotic but so what?

 

[articul8]

That said, pretty much any form of PR would be a huge improvement on the current ridiculous system.

That should be the starting point - the system we have has given us 3 more or less identical parties, people like Hazel Blears who can do pretty much wtf they like because their majorities are so huge, and help to keep minor parties from challenging the lash up. It's rotten and has to go.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with party lists - it's perfectly possible for a party to democratically determine the order of candidates. But I accept they can be used to stitch up opponents, and don't allow voters enough choice.

If AV+ is the only game in town, let's have it. A system like STV would better, but the bottom line is we demand change.

 

[articul8]

Prof Callinicos on PR:

Labour’s meltdown is encouraging calls from the left for PR, as the Tory election victories in the 1980s and 1990s did. Various worthies signed an advert calling a referendum on electoral reform that was published in last Sunday’s Observer newspaper.

I think that the left does have to look seriously at PR. But the most popular proposals – the Alternative Vote Plus and Single-Transferable Vote – are those that would prop up the existing party system. The strongest argument for electoral reform is that it would help break the dominance of two increasingly unrepresentative big parties.

But the collapse of the existing party system could make things worse if the only alternatives come from the radical right – UKIP and the BNP. The radical left in Britain today is deeply fragmented and electorally very weak.

This is ironic since the expenses crisis is in many ways about the corrupting influence that neoliberalism has exerted on mainstream politics. It’s important that the left doesn’t get trapped in a debate about constitutional reform that in many ways serves the interests of the big parties.

seems to be implying that breaking the hold of the main parties should be put on hold because the far right would benefit - exactly as the Labour dino's argue

Preference voting would help anti BNP vote, and free space on left from argument that voting for small left parties is a wasted vote.

 

[Gmart]

There's a good article here on possible electoral reform if Gordon Brown is canny enough.

What if the cumulative effect of all this was to shift the result from a narrow Tory majority to a hung parliament? Then the Liberal Democrats would have a hand on the wheel. We would have AV. It would not take much to add a proportional top-up to the AV system and, hey presto, we would have AV Plus; the voting system recommend by the late Roy Jenkins more than a decade ago to which Labour still has an outstanding manifesto commitment; and so yet another good reason for Brown to go for it. Can those who want proportionality be against such a referendum? It's another tough call.

 

[lewislewis]

The AV stuff is a bit dodgy.

Why is there still a debate about this?

STV is the most effective form of PR and should be used in all elections, Ireland style. Then you have local link and proportionality.

 

[Gmart]

The AV stuff is a bit dodgy.

Why is there still a debate about this?

STV is the most effective form of PR and should be used in all elections, Ireland style. Then you have local link and proportionality.

Why couldn't we have one system for the House of Commons and the other for the House of Lords?

Then the representatives would need to compete to ensure that they got voted back in...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The AV stuff is a bit dodgy.

Why is there still a debate about this?

STV is the most effective form of PR and should be used in all elections, Ireland style. Then you have local link and proportionality.

Our political elite don't want local links and/or proportionality.