THE IWCA Something quite different or just another leftie group?

[cockneyrebel]

There is a difference between making the same point many times (as most people do on these board in one way or another) and making politically cynical piss take comments about what someone is saying. For instance in this case despite the fact that UR is a dedicated activist in both his union and community work and despite the fact you do sweet FA you feel the need to ridicule what he is saying.

I've gone over it again and again with him. It's pointless now. He doesn't listen.

Why if someone disagrees with you do you automatically assume it's because they aren't listening? A bit arrogant. Maybe they're just not convinced by what you're saying.

 

[urbanrevolt]

You mean you've never seen them on a no borders demo?!

Anywhere. May be they do do good stuff but a webiste does give some idea and impression.

 

[urbanrevolt]

I've gone over it again and again with him. It's pointless now. He doesn't listen.

"What a really funny post.......and so original.

Oh the irony!

I think the he referred to may be me- however I'm not sure to what mk is referring- we have had debates and discussions around a number of subjects- immigration, the bolsheviks, working class emancipation however don't remember the iwca being much of a discussion.

On th eother subjects I think we both listen to one another and end up agreeing more than we first realised in some cases- though still having some disagreements.

Imo disagreement is no bad thing necessarily anyway have fun

 

[tbaldwin]

Nah, they're more drawbridge pullers-up in poor disguise, complete with a borderline 'local jobs for local people' policy that they struggle to coherently explain without making divisive arses out of themself. Who was it that was keen to link to some unpleasant IWCA article that talked about immigrants using lovely terms like 'drain' and 'swamp?' Watching a number of folks hopelessly trying to justify such careless, divisive bibble was indicative to say the least.

The folks I know around Brixton involved tend to be exactly the same comparatively well educated middle class public schoolboy dropouts and 'prolier than thou' types involved in a number of leftist organisations too.

Nice sentiments, same primitive horizons limited pish in reality.

Are your views, shaped by any direct experience?
I would say using a term like drawbride pullers up also has a bit of racist ring to it.

 

[tarannau]

Yep that's right Balders, mentioning the term 'drawbridge pullers up' makes me racist. Care to explain your bizarre logic on this one? I do hope you're not making a fool out of yourself with tenuous bibble again.

And yep, I know a number of local politicos who now favour the IWCA around Brixton. They're a laughable bunch on the whole, including one public schoolboy who's one of the biggest hypocrites I can think of.

 

[tbaldwin]

Yep that's right Balders, mentioning the term 'drawbridge pullers up' makes me racist. Care to explain your bizarre logic on this one? I do hope you're not making a fool out of yourself with tenuous bibble again.

And yep, I know a number of local politicos who now favour the IWCA around Brixton. They're a laughable bunch on the whole, including one public schoolboy who's one of the biggest hypocrites I can think of.

I think its a bit of a dodgy term. I think its often used by people trying to explain away Black and Asian views on migration that dont fit in with their nice white liberal world views.

I dont think most Black or Asian people would have much of a problem with the IWCA's standpoint on migration.

 

[tarannau]

That's one of the most laughable explanations I've ever heard Baldwin.

Did you have a knock on the head as a nipper that made you lose all logic and a sudden urge to shout 'racist' and 'white liberal' at every opportunity, like a numbskull version of Tourette's?

Must try harder. E- minus for effort. F- for logic and ability to explain yourself.

 

[cantsin]

Sounds ancient (working mens...etc) and using the word association makes it sound middle class.

The slogan: 'working class rule in working class areas' sounds like it could have come from the terraces.

working mens clubs and terraces - terrible stuff eh

 

[tbaldwin]

That's one of the most laughable explanations I've ever heard Baldwin.

.

What about Coconut or Uncle Tom? Do you think they have racist undertones at all?
Do you not see any parrallels?

 

[tarannau]

There's no relevance between those terms all you numpty.

Show me one real world usage where they're approaching equivalence. Parallels my arse.

Fucks sake, you can't honestly believe this crap you're coming out with.

 

[audiotech]

working mens clubs and terraces - terrible stuff eh

I'm a member of both.

I once picketed a meeting of the CIU (affiliated ), working men's clubs, stalinist wing, who were refusing women full membership rights.

memo to self - need to renew my subs.

 

[tbaldwin]

There's no relevance between those terms all you numpty.

Show me one real world usage where they're approaching equivalence. Parallels my arse.

Fucks sake, you can't honestly believe this crap you're coming out with.

Yeah OK.
Coconut and Uncle Tom are often used to describe people who go against what some people think Black people should think. And using the expression pulling up the drawbridge is used by people who think that Black/Asian people should all agree with their nonsense views on immigration.

 

[Sean]

The folks I know around Brixton involved tend to be exactly the same comparatively well educated middle class public schoolboy dropouts and 'prolier than thou' types involved in a number of leftist organisations too.

Nice sentiments, same primitive horizons limited pish in reality.

You shouldn't judge an organisation by its (distant) admirers. I'm sure there are loads of middle class nobheads who have a penchant for Red Army Faction t-shirts, Hugo Chavez sweaters and Che-branded jeans, but as one of the very few (and, of late, lapsed) middle class IWCA members I can assure you they are fiercely working class in membership and political orientation.

 

[audiotech]

You shouldn't judge an organisation by its (distant) admirers. I'm sure there are loads of middle class nobheads who have a penchant for Red Army Faction t-shirts, Hugo Chavez sweaters and Che-branded jeans, but as one of the very few (and, of late, lapsed) middle class IWCA members I can assure you they are fiercely working class in membership and political orientation.

Why lapsed Sean?

 

[Sean]

Why lapsed Sean?

No political issues - far from it - but pressures of work and family and moving further away from the area i was involved.

As you may have noticed, it's a lot of hard graft to do what the IWCA do day in day out and i couldn't do that any more.

 

[tbaldwin]

My impression is that the IWCA in Oxford is a bit of a one off. A few friends who got together under that banner and did something quite impressive.

But Nationally, i get the impression that they are far too like the other dogmatic left groups they criticise, to really have an impact.

Be interested in what Joe,Durruti,Butchers and Lletsa etc have to say on this.

 

[mk12]

There is a difference between making the same point many times (as most people do on these board in one way or another) and making politically cynical piss take comments about what someone is saying. For instance in this case despite the fact that UR is a dedicated activist in both his union and community work and despite the fact you do sweet FA you feel the need to ridicule what he is saying.



Why if someone disagrees with you do you automatically assume it's because they aren't listening? A bit arrogant. Maybe they're just not convinced by what you're saying.

No, trust me, he doesn't listen. You disagree, but at least you listen.

 

[tbaldwin]

No political issues - far from it - but pressures of work and family and moving further away from the area i was involved.

As you may have noticed, it's a lot of hard graft to do what the IWCA do day in day out and i couldn't do that any more.

I think that is the problem with a lot of these left groups. Very few people want to commit so much time and effort. Especially as they start to slowly ask questions of what its achieving. This leaves the organised left dominated by the real headbangers with nothing else in their lives.

 

[soulman]

.

 

[revol68]

The IWCA's son's and daughters housing policy is fucking reactionary shit, their attempts to paint it as pro working class belies their concept of the working class as being 'a native settled' working class and their concept of working class organising is based on organising 'communities' that seek to protect themselves from outsiders.

It's reactionary in the truest sense of the word, the non workplace equivalent of Guild Unionism.

 

[The Black Hand]

Dick Emery R US

The IWCA's son's and daughters housing policy is fucking reactionary shit, their attempts to paint it as pro working class belies their concept of the working class as being 'a native settled' working class and their concept of working class organising is based on organising 'communities' that seek to protect themselves from outsiders.

It's reactionary in the truest sense of the word, the non workplace equivalent of Guild Unionism.

Oh you are awful... but If you carry on like this we may end up in bed together...

 

[treelover]

Exactamundo, lets get rid of labels, say he with no sense of irony...

They're not about 'being left' they're about solidarity in the working classes AFAIK....

 

[soulman]

No poll. Why doesn't that surprise me.

 

[durruti02]

The IWCA's son's and daughters housing policy is fucking reactionary shit, their attempts to paint it as pro working class belies their concept of the working class as being 'a native settled' working class and their concept of working class organising is based on organising 'communities' that seek to protect themselves from outsiders.

It's reactionary in the truest sense of the word, the non workplace equivalent of Guild Unionism.

no it is based on the idea that you build from where you are .. all leftism builds its castle on sand .. we need to build absolutely from the base .. only then wuill we have real change instead of bullshit protest and teenage rebellion .. think global act local .. if we have no power at the base we can not destroy reaction however much we desire it and are reduced to appeals to the state!

 

[revol68]

no it is based on the idea that you build from where you are .. all leftism builds its castle on sand .. we need to build absolutely from the base .. only then wuill we have real change instead of bullshit protest and teenage rebellion .. think global act local .. if we have no power at the base we can not destroy reaction however much we desire it and are reduced to appeals to the state!

actually my opposition to sons and daughters is based on the here and now, on the fact that I don't think that locality should trump other more pressing needs in housing. In northern ireland a son's and daughters policy would be the wax stamp on sectarian housing. In the wider UK such a policy would only exasperate the ghettoisation of housing between asian, whites, blacks and future immigrant populations.

Further more the working class shouldn't fight amongst itself for housing (and certainly shouldn't prioritise 'locality'), if ther eis a shortage of houses then fight for more housing, don't take a running jump into their fucking zero sum politic!

 

[revol68]

Also why do you talk about the working class only in terms of those settled in an area with family ties? is the young single mother moving into a estate less working class? Are immigrants not part of the working class?

 

[revol68]

oh and take your time you quasi Strasserite bag of shite.

 

[Blagsta]

revol68 in talking sense shocker!

 

[treelover]

Oh dear, out come the 'Nazi' taunts, leave it out will you?

for those who aren't aware of what R68 is on about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser

 

[audiotech]

Gri££in has described himself as a Strasserite.