The point I was trying to make is that it reflects the reality of what the majority want to read so, if you broadly subscribe to democratic principles, it is more representative/realistic etc...
The Independent is going down
- Thread starter Darios
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The point I was trying to make is that it reflects the reality of what the majority want to read so, if you broadly subscribe to democratic principles, it is more representative/realistic etc...
maximilian ping
Grrrrr
like a lot of popular things, it panders to lazy thinking and people's innate snobbishness and racism. 'democratic' maybe, but you can either think that is a good thing or a bad thing. the kind of 'democratic' i like is a bit different from that
Might the internet have played a substantial part in it? The Indie, as well as the Graniaud, would have had the highest proportion of its readership amongst students and 20-somethings, and they're much more likely to get their news online than your 50-something Torygraph reader.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
No worse than their equally absurd "cannabis is harmless" line when supporting legalisation, which shouldn't be dependent on the level of risk, but our right to take it.
For all that, I'll miss the Indy, but I've not bought it in years, so I probably won't miss it that much. It has been said that, without newspapers to expose it, corruption will rise in public life. Maybe so, but there's only so many stories about endangerd Ents I can take.
Badger Kitten
oof
I will miss Matthew Norman's columns, very badly. I hope it manages to survive.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
It's not gone under yet. Very possible that Lebedev will buy it and merge it in with the Standard somehow - they're already sharing back office stuff under the Mail aegis.
Perhaps better that it did go down then.
the button
out on the kocker
I never read columnists or editorial in any newspaper I buy (and I've read all the "broadsheets" regularly over the years), I just go for the one that seems to have the most actual news in it. This was The Independent in the late 80s (IMO). I also liked their stance on not covering the royal family, cos it isn't news. Last time I got The Independent was last year when they were giving it away free with bottled water in WH Smith in train stations -- didn't even last ½ an hour into the journey. 
Does the Indy have some connection with the Irish Independent? Same group?
Having had a look at the Irish Independent recently it appears to have an editorial line and columnists significantly more reactionary and right-wing biased than the Irish Times.....
ska invita
back on the other side
they got a new editor in in the last 12months (former Observer person i think), and rather than make it more lefty/wordy he took it more sex and sizzle - it really has gotten shit over the last year after a pretty good stint over the early 2000s.
Johann Harri has written some good stuff too - no really, he has. I know he supported the iraq invasion, but he said it was becuase his iraqi friends all thought it was a good idea, and then he did have the decency to say that he was a chump for going along with it, and made a pretty good go of a public apology. aside from that he writes the odd thought provoking thing here and there.
Are there any profit making papers? I seem to remember seeing a table of all newspapers accounts and they all made losses of different sizes. Probably got that wrong... if anyone can post a link that would be great.
Johann Harri has written some good stuff too - no really, he has. I know he supported the iraq invasion, but he said it was becuase his iraqi friends all thought it was a good idea, and then he did have the decency to say that he was a chump for going along with it, and made a pretty good go of a public apology. aside from that he writes the odd thought provoking thing here and there.
Are there any profit making papers? I seem to remember seeing a table of all newspapers accounts and they all made losses of different sizes. Probably got that wrong... if anyone can post a link that would be great.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Mr Hari, for all his moments of madness (he recently defended piracy on the high seas
), is one of the few columnists I have time for, as he's that rare creature who thinks for himself. It'll be a loss if he isn't writing regularly in the press. I disagreed with Mr Hari over Iraq (as I support national sovereignty) but his justification, which boiled down to weighing up two piles of bodies, was a fascinating and horrifying window into the mind of liberal interventionists. He hasn't abandoned the underlying logic, merely switched sides now the gory moral calculation is against the war. Few would be that candid (or gauche) but credit to him for his honesty.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Indeed, his candour does him credit. Perhaps in time he'll re-examine his repulsive ethical mathematics, although maybe not, since his change of heart was prompted by it.
Mr Hari also likes to denounce religion in vitriolic terms for moral primitivism. I'm frequently infuriated by what he says, but it's good to read someone who puts the other side over so articulately.
Mr Hari also likes to denounce religion in vitriolic terms for moral primitivism.
I'm frequently infuriated by what he says, but it's good to read someone who puts the other side over so articulately.Mr Hari, for all his moments of madness (he recently defended piracy on the high seas
I disagreed with Mr Hari over Iraq (as I support national sovereignty) but his justification, which boiled down to weighing up two piles of bodies, was a fascinating and horrifying window into the mind of liberal interventionists. He hasn't abandoned the underlying logic, merely switched sides now the gory moral calculation is against the war. Few would be that candid (or gauche) but credit to him for his honesty.
Do you think the Iraq was right?
Interesting....
Guineveretoo
Mostly bewildered
I have always been surprised at how low the circulation figures are for both the Guardian and the Independent, because most of the people I know read one or the other (or claim to!), although I remain convinced that part of this was because so many newsagents ran out of both so early in the day, but still had the crappy tabloids on sale. Loads of times, I would have bought the Guardian as first choice and, if they had run out of that, the Independent. I would have boosted their circulation stats 
I think the likely demise of the Independent is a shame, because it leaves the Guardian without any competition for that market, however small it may appear to be, so they might sit back on their laurels a bit, and it was also good to have some choice in the newsagents. However, it is indisputable that quality of the reporting in the Independent has being reducing in the last few years, so perhaps it is not surprising.
I think the likely demise of the Independent is a shame, because it leaves the Guardian without any competition for that market, however small it may appear to be, so they might sit back on their laurels a bit, and it was also good to have some choice in the newsagents. However, it is indisputable that quality of the reporting in the Independent has being reducing in the last few years, so perhaps it is not surprising.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
I have always been surprised at how low the circulation figures are for both the Guardian and the Independent, because most of the people I know read one or the other (or claim to!), although I remain convinced that part of this was because so many newsagents ran out of both so early in the day, but still had the crappy tabloids on sale. Loads of times, I would have bought the Guardian as first choice and, if they had run out of that, the Independent. I would have boosted their circulation stats
yep
Rod Sleeves
New Member
I suspect the Independent will survive, in some form unfortunately, I also think it will carry on moving to the right and providing even less competition to the Guardian, which will in turn continue to become even smugger.
DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
They sold half of it to private equity firm Apax last year and then used a Cayman Islands based SPV to avoid paying 300m of Capital Gains Tax. Do as I say not as I do obviously...
Guineveretoo
Mostly bewildered
If it survives under the ownership of the Mail group, can it really be said to have survived?
To be fair, it hasn't been "independent" for a long time, but it was at least a little bit leaning to the left, on an intellectual level. Sort of.
I agree about the Guardian, but I am not sure they can afford to be complacent, and I hope they realise that.
doddles
Appreciates the good eggs
I started reading the Independent in the mid nineties - I liked the fact that they weren't beholden to one end of the political spectrum or the other. Then I moved to the USA around 2000, and was very disappointed how far downhill the Indy had gone when I moved to the UK 2 years ago. It really is a shame, since there is a need for a strong and independent newspaper (just as there is for a strong and independent political party IMO).
So, it's now the Guardian for me, with reads of FT or The Economist for a different viewpoint.
I'm about to re-subscribe to The New Yorker too. Now there's an amazing journal. An issue per week of some of the most thorough, well-researched and relevant in-depth journalism you'll find anywhere. And although a lot of it USA-focussed, there's enough in there of international relevance to be worth a read. Why does nothing like it exist here?
For anyone who's not read The New Yorker, I'd recommend registering for a free online trial subscription on their web site.
So, it's now the Guardian for me, with reads of FT or The Economist for a different viewpoint.
I'm about to re-subscribe to The New Yorker too. Now there's an amazing journal. An issue per week of some of the most thorough, well-researched and relevant in-depth journalism you'll find anywhere. And although a lot of it USA-focussed, there's enough in there of international relevance to be worth a read. Why does nothing like it exist here?
For anyone who's not read The New Yorker, I'd recommend registering for a free online trial subscription on their web site.
doddles
Appreciates the good eggs
I refuse to read the glossy pages in The G and The O for that very reason. Bloody horrible.
if you think the gaurdian is any different from the right wing press , especially given its recent editorial wihich argued in favour of charging a flat rate for perscriptions right across the NHS regardless of ability to pay and preparing the ground for other neo-con ideas espoused by the incoming tory government then your deluded.Save your money and buy 'Time' magazine
doddles
Appreciates the good eggs
The problem with 'Time' magazine is that it's too glossy. Not enough roughness and absorbency for a good wipe.
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