The humiliation of the UK being butt-f*cked by Iran.

[weltweit]

ViolentPanda you mention fact, would you care to define the word fact?

What is published in the British newspapers is not fact, what is written in newspapers are stories. And what is written in some of them is mere jingoistic propaganda.

 

[weltweit]

That is true Bernie, but while we have these issues, Iran is surrounded on two sides by states that are occupied by the Americans and British, Iraq on one side and Afghanistan on the other.

Iran is uncomfortable with this situation, and with the rhetoric coming from the USA, I do not blame it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ViolentPanda you mention fact, would you care to define the word fact?

To me "fact" is data that accords with, for example, informed (academic and professional) sources, not Greebozzs' media-derived emotionalist dreck.

What is published in the British newspapers is not fact, what is written in newspapers are stories. And what is written in some of them is mere jingoistic propaganda.

Which is why I don't rely on the news media for information, I rely on sources like Janes for military info, and on the occasional trawl through academic publication dbs for handles on other stuff, as well as on personal contacts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The fundamental problem perhaps is that our armed services have no business being there in the first place.

We at home know it, those serving out there know it, the Iranians know it and apart from a tiny deluded minority here and there, the whole world knows it.

Unfortunately, the "deluded" minority are those with power, so we get to live out their delusions for them.

That being the case, we are at a moral disadvantage from the start. Thanks to the stupidity and incompetence of the US/UK leadership in setting insane objectives for the military, we are also at a strategic disadvantage. Thanks to the realities of the situation on the ground, and again incompetence, we are also at an operational disadvantage. In the particular case of this boarding party, they were caught effectively with their pants down and hence were also at a tactical disadvantage.

No amount of spin or bluster can fix a mess like this. All you can hope for is some lube.

Which wouldn't be so bad if it were the "deluded minority" who were having to grease their orifices, but it isn't, it never has been, and it never will be, will it?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Unfortunately, the "deluded" minority are those with power, so we get to live out their delusions for them.

Which wouldn't be so bad if it were the "deluded minority" who were having to grease their orifices, but it isn't, it never has been, and it never will be, will it?

Yep. I also suspect that this may be just a relatively painless wake up call about the dodgy situation the idiots in question have created.

I'm increasingly getting the idea that as a matter of routine, it is just not feasible to make adequate provision against all of Iran's options. The UK simply doesn't have the capability to prevent the Iranians from fucking with our forces in the region if they choose to look for weaknesses like this one.

While a relatively small number of UK forces are in an Iraq run by politicians whose militias (in the case of the Badr Brigade at least) were formerly part of the Pasdaran, many of whose people see them as the hated US's lickspittle sidekicks and while the US is obviously itching to bomb the shit out of Iran, considerably worse could happen than this incident.

Under the circumstances, that probably means that it's only a matter of time before it does.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep. I also suspect that this may be just a relatively painless wake up call about the dodgy situation the idiots in question have created.

I'm increasingly getting the idea that as a matter of routine, it is just not feasible to make adequate provision against all of Iran's options. The UK simply doesn't have the capability to prevent the Iranians from fucking with our forces in the region if they choose to look for weaknesses like this one.

While a relatively small number of UK forces are in an Iraq run by politicians whose militias (in the case of the Badr Brigade at least) were formerly part of the Pasdaran, many of whose people see them as the hated US's lickspittle sidekicks and while the US is obviously itching to bomb the shit out of Iran, considerably worse could happen than this incident.

Under the circumstances, that probably means that it's only a matter of time before it does.

Indeed.

So to pay the price of our politicians "standing shoulder to shoulder" with their neocon heroes, our troops get put in harm's way for no good reason other than to help facilitate resource theft.
G-d knows soldiers are willing to risk their lives at the govenment's behest, but risking them to help set in train what promises to be a decades-long mess that will make Ulster look like a sunday school outing by comparison is folly, and to do it to so nakedly for oil...well, if I were still taking the queen's shilling I'd desert.

Greebozz may enjoy spooning up the pre-digested pabulum the media serves him, but it doesn't take much of an effort to check whether you're being lied to.
I can only suppose that being deceived is a state he's comfortable with.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

'For no good reason'

That's the fundamental problem. Everything else flows from that.

All those John Wayne bullshitters in the US and in the media, calling the boarding party nasty names for just trying to get home in one piece instead of making glorious but stupid gestures fail to understand that point and the enormous difference that it makes.

 

[rekil]

I'm sure people argued, as they did very strongly against Churchill's warnings about Germany, that there was no proof that Jews were being rounded up and murdered. And that Churchill was being the old campaign squarking war-mounger.

If you could go back in time, would you be defending the pre war Germany, against the nasty jingoistic warmunger's like myself?

If you're going to play that stupid game, we can safely assume that had you been in germany in the 20's and 30's you would have been whinging about "the humiliation of being buttfucked by versailles and the jews and communists etc" and banging on about national unity and whatnot.

And fyi, Churchill thought very highly of Adolf until at least as late as early 1936, long after the camps had opened for business.

Incidentally I would like to see you knock up a light beam IDE trigger. Incidentally the Armed Forces on the ground are saying they come from Iran. I'm afraid I believe them more than your good self. Unless you think it's stage managed.

The technology has been in general circulation for a while since british agents passed it onto the IRA as part of an op.

 

[TAE]

I'm a Jew. I don't do the "turn the other cheek" thing, I prefer "an eye for an eye".
In this case "an eye for an eye" seems to be exactly what occurred, although I doubt a blinkered jingoist such as yourself will realise that.

I think an eye for an eye would have meant that the UK arrest 15 iranian sailors, no more, no less.

 

[nino_savatte]

The MoD have given permission for the 15 service personnel to "talk to the media". One suspects that this is being allowed so that their "stories" will be used as part of the anti-Iranian propaganda that will be generated in advance of any military action planned by the US.

 

[London_Calling]

yep, "talking to the media" is an extention of our "prepared statements" are better than your "prepared statements", which in turn was an extention of "our GPS is better than your GPS".


Just more headlines for media-fodder like Mr "butt-fucked" Greebozz.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'For no good reason'

That's the fundamental problem. Everything else flows from that.

All those John Wayne bullshitters in the US and in the media, calling the boarding party nasty names for just trying to get home in one piece instead of making glorious but stupid gestures fail to understand that point and the enormous difference that it makes.

Precisely.
Your point about "stupid gestures" is well-made. I don't believe that putting lives at risk in order to perform what amounts to a salving of the macho instincts of a bunch of draft-dodging neocons in Washington, a man who was "so committed" to pacifism that he refused to join his school's cadet force and his sycphants, and the armchair generals like Greebozz, is a worthwhile utilisation of our armed forces. I personally believe that people who are voluntarily "in harms' way" deserve a little more consideration than to be used like that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think an eye for an eye would have meant that the UK arrest 15 iranian sailors, no more, no less.

Except that to the Iranians the US & UK, in political terms anyway, have long been homogeneous, so I'm fairly sure that the message to the Iranian people from their leaders was "the dogs took five of our diplomats, people with accreditation and immunity, so we've taken some of their sailors".

 

[ViolentPanda]

yep, "talking to the media" is an extention of our "prepared statements" are better than your "prepared statements", which in turn was an extention of "our GPS is better than your GPS".


Just more headlines for media-fodder like Mr "butt-fucked" Greebozz.

You can be sure the stories under those headlines won't mention that the sailors and marines are blanket-covered by the same OSA regs that any other govt employee is, and so will have been "advised" what they may or may not divulge.

Good old Joe & Josephine Public are about to get fed another spoonful of yummy pre-digested agitprop, and a goodly few of them don't even realise it.

 

[Greebozz]

happy Easter everyone.

 

[Darios]

Good old Joe & Josephine Public are about to get fed another spoonful of yummy pre-digested agitprop, and a goodly few of them don't even realise it.

Which is why issues such as This are so important.

We're losing the battle on the home front folks.....

It's very difficult to get a critical discourse into the public domain when critical thinking skills aren't even on the educational radar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bernie, cop'and violent Panda. I congratulate you, you are true heroes of urban 75. I respect you guys as people, but your views fill me with hatred and loathing. I don't carry feelings like that around with me. I deal with them almost instantly, by keeping perspective. But actually I'm finding it an exhausting process not detesting you.

Tough shit.

By writing like willing traitors, brushing off the death of British forces with a terse "they shouldn't be there", etc, makes me very angry. But there is nothing I can do about a because it is a web forum. Posting here is a very powerful exercise in dealing with hatred, and I normally find it very satisfying dealing with the hatred I feel when I read what you guys write. It is a great spiritual process, but you can have too much of a good thing.

So very many judgements so very badly made with so few words. Even for you this must be some kind of record for arrogant stupidity.
1) I don't "brush off" any deaths. I have relatives and friends in the forces, and served myself.

2) Saying "they shouldn't be there" has nothing to do with "brushing off the death of British forces", it's a statement based on a very simple cost/benefit analysis of the current situation. It's an assessment most of the brass from the british armed forces have also made. I prefer to listen to their arguments, rather than the chest-pounding of politicians and press, or the bleatings of chickenhawks.

3) It's a shame some of the hatred you feel isn't self-hatred. At least that might serve the useful function of encouraging you to examine your beliefs.

4) You're upset that there's nothing you can do about your anger because this is a web forum? Is that supposed to scare me, am I supposed to worry that big bad Greebozz would come and give me a kicking if he could?

You've just sunk even lower in my estimation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which is why issues such as This are so important.

I agree.

We're losing the battle on the home front folks.....

It's very difficult to get a critical discourse into the public domain when critical thinking skills aren't even on the educational radar.

IIRC someone on another thread (it may have been you, I don't remember) suggested that "critical thinking skills" should be taught at secondary school level, and I agree with that idea, at least a start should be made. As it is we have undergrads starting higher ed with only a vague idea, if any, of how to unpack and analyse an argument, and to critique it, or how to look "behind" a story at it's "building blocks" and then examine those blocks.

We have to ask ourselves though, who it serves to have a public the majority of whom are unable or uninterested in thinking critically?

 

[rekil]

By writing like willing traitors

I'm not British.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I agree.


IIRC someone on another thread (it may have been you, I don't remember) suggested that "critical thinking skills" should be taught at secondary school level, and I agree with that idea, at least a start should be made. As it is we have undergrads starting higher ed with only a vague idea, if any, of how to unpack and analyse an argument, and to critique it, or how to look "behind" a story at it's "building blocks" and then examine those blocks.

We have to ask ourselves though, who it serves to have a public the majority of whom are unable or uninterested in thinking critically?

Yes - media studies, for example, although much derided is actually a really useful area of study becasue it teaches you how the media contructs, distorts and shapes 'reality' and how powerful forces use media in order to influence news agnedas and public discourse for their own benefit.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You're having a 'hard time not detesting' us because we don't share your delusions?

Well OK, but please don't expect anything more than the sympathy traditionally accorded to those who, due to brain damage or insanity, can't tell fantasy from reality.

We didn't create this mess. In fact, most of us campaigned actively to prevent it from happening. It was obvious to many of us from the start that this was a seriously crap idea.

If Blair decides to put our forces at the disposal of the imperial ambitions of an alleged ally who then proceeds straight to moral and strategic defeat and is rapidly putting them in the way of operational and tactical defeat as well, we can only deplore his lousy judgement.

If you don't like it, getting upset with people who tried to stop it from happening seems rather pathetic. Why not get annoyed instead with those responsible for this mess?

edited to replace colourful metaphor with more precise description of the problem.

 

[London_Calling]

happy Easter everyone.

Just curious, are you an active Christian ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes - media studies, for example, although much derided is actually a really useful area of study becasue it teaches you how the media contructs, distorts and shapes 'reality' and how powerful forces use media in order to influence news agnedas and public discourse for their own benefit.

I agree. In fact many of the "soft sciences", because of the contingency and fluidity of their intellectual base, provide their students with the tools to deconstruct discourse and analyse context.

What really makes me despondent is that I don't actually think it's very difficult to teach someone the basics of critical/analytical thinking. It's something that could be done as a standard part of secondary science education, which would also give the pupils the space to actually ingrain the habit by the time they go out into "the world".

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're having a 'hard time not detesting' us because we don't share your delusions?

Well OK, but please don't expect anything more than the sympathy traditionally accorded to those who, due to brain damage or insanity, can't tell fantasy from reality.

We didn't create this mess. In fact, most of us campaigned actively to prevent it from happening. It was obvious to many of us from the start that this was a seriously crap idea.

If Blair decides to put our forces at the disposal of the imperial ambitions of an alleged ally who then proceeds straight to moral and strategic defeat and is rapidly putting them in the way of operational and tactical defeat as well, we can only deplore his lousy judgement.

If you don't like it, getting upset with people who tried to stop it from happening seems rather pathetic. Why not get annoyed instead with those responsible for this mess?

edited to replace colourful metaphor with more precise description of the problem.

I had to do that too.

Frankly, I doubt (on his current showing) that Greebozz either wants to, or is actually capable of "getting annoyed" at those who caused the mess, because to him they represent a myth that he's unable to suppress his awe of; the myth of British puissance.
As we, and our postings, transgress his myth, to him we are legitimate targets for his banal, ill-informed chauvinism.