The humiliation of the UK being butt-f*cked by Iran.

[London_Calling]

I do think that of course the nation state is a form of collective. I don't understand how you can be so detached, it is not a criticism. Is then no warm cosy memory in your childhood, that makes you feel part of this country, the you not admire a single British hero when you were growing up?. By any independent measure this is a very humiliating situation for Britain. Being forced to apologise, by a seemingly arrogant sabre rattling Iran, in order for our troops to be released. Forgive me for doubting, but how can some people be so detached about the situation.

Certainly felt that way when growing up; it would be almost impossible not to in a country like this where the glorious history - recent and ancient - is piled onto you from every angle including the school exam board, the BBC - in various ways most days of the week, the middle class filmakers of the post-war period.

It's endless propaganda for a vision of this country that never, ever existed.

The only route away from that lifetime of indoctrination is, imo, re-education, otherwise the hardwired emotional reactionsim automatically kicks in, and before you know it, you're waving flags in Trafalgar Square because En-ger-lan have won a cricket match.

Personally I needed to get angry that I'd been subject to all that crap and believed it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I do think that of course the nation state is a form of collective. I don't understand how you can be so detached

To quote the great Erich Fromm,

“Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism” is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by "patriotism” I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one’s own nation, which is the concern with the nation’s spiritual as much as with its material welfare — never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The easiest way to deal with it, is to take the attitude that we deserve to be humiliated as punishment for the war in Iraq and for our friendliness to America. But on the other hand, are we being taken advantage of? Like a woman suffering domestic violence and abuse being persuaded it is all her fault, so as to make her feel cowed and unresisting. How do we know we can trust our accusers?

I notice that in your usual rush to judgement you haven't acknowledged that the RN has form in the Gulf for "accidentally drifting into Iranian waters". You can bet that the chaps at the Admiralty knew the risks to their personnel when they tasked them with their mission, and most of this sanctimonious carping emanating from our politicians is a smokescreen because they can't acknowledge that our forces, in situations like this, are often tasked with violating another nation's territorial sovereignty.

The beauty of it is that people like you take the baton and run with it, spreading your ill-informed indignation about a situation even though you haven't been told the whole truth about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

paid to kill, paid to die.

That's what it boils down to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How so confident about their release?

They could equally be tried and imprisoned.

I wouldn't put it as strong as the OP has but I understand the centiment. To use the venacula. We're being mugged up. That doesn't of course warrent a thug's retourt. But we're dealing with wronguns.

It's that simple, is it, "we're dealing with wronguns"?

Nah. If it were that cut and dried the problem wouldn't exist in the first place. It's the very fact that it's apparent that the Iranians aren't "wronguns", that they make arguments that can be appreciated as rational, that helps to constitute "the Iranian problem".

 

[Belushi]

Thanks to Anglo-American stupidity over the past few years there's really little Britain can do to force the Iranians hands - we were kind enough to take out their two strongest neighbours (The Taliban and Saddam) leaving them the regional power. We've already threatened sanctions over the nuclear issue without them backing down and after the Iraq debacle theres not much sympathy for Britian among our European and other allies.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I feel a fair degree of humiliation regarding the kidnap of the sailors by Iran. It is the embarrassing sense of powerlessness, both personally and our country as a whole. There is nothing we can do. And to make matters worse Iran is star is definitely rising, and winners are never short of allies. The UN draft has already been watered down.

It is anyone else feeling this? And if so what is your attitude about the situation and how are you dealing with it mentally.

Sounds like a demented attempt to turn the UK into a victim that needs to use military action to re-assert itself again...

 

[JHE]

paid to kill, paid to die.

You, on the other hand, are not mercenary. You post your callous comments unpaid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Trouble is, the UK is allied to a country which routinely kidnaps and tortures other countries citizens (Germany, Italy and a couple of other countries have current warrants out for the arrests of US agents for doing exactly that) so we're not exactly on unshakeable moral grounds when Iran grabs some of our servicemen.

I wouldn't be even a bit surprised to discover that what actually motivated the Republican Guard to grab our servicemen in this case was some idea of doing a trade for the assorted Republican Guard personnel (or diplomats, depending who you ask) that the US has grabbed and vanished in the last few weeks.

Sure, holding UK personnel is out of order, but unfortunately we're allied to a state that does a lot worse as a matter of routine and whose mess we well may have stepped in once again over this matter given the current US belligerence towards Iran (which Blair largely supports as far as I can tell)

If we can settle this with the Iranian Foreign Ministry instead of the Republican Guard crazies, by making a fairly meaningless concession over the territorial limits of Iraqi waters, rather than getting stuck in an impasse over the Iranians that the US has grabbed, is presumably torturing someplace and is very unlikely to want to give back on our account, then that's arguably the best outcome that could reasonably be expected under the circumstances.

To be frank, I think you're labouring under an illusion about the degree to which the OP gives a damn about the issue except as a vehicle for one of his patented (by Horatio Bottomley by the sound of it) rants.

 

[JHE]

Sounds like a demented attempt to turn the UK into a victim that needs to use military action to re-assert itself again...

Ah, it's all part of a cunning British plan, is it? The govt or the top brass wanted the Britons to be captured, right?

Bollocks!

The Iranian regime thought it would be useful to have some British hostages, so it took some and is playing a nasty game with them.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

You, on the other hand, are not mercenary. You post your callous comments unpaid.

no, his statements are plain facts, not callous comments. or his islamophobia affecting your judgment again? however much sympathy I may feel toward those soldiers as a human being held in a foreign environment by enemies, if you join the army, you know the potential consequences. tough.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I feel a fair degree of humiliation regarding the kidnap of the sailors by Iran. It is the embarrassing sense of powerlessness, both personally and our country as a whole. There is nothing we can do. And to make matters worse Iran is star is definitely rising, and winners are never short of allies. The UN draft has already been watered down.

It is anyone else feeling this? And if so what is your attitude about the situation and how are you dealing with it mentally.

I am so affected mentally by these events that I am off to consult my shrink.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

To be frank, I think you're labouring under an illusion about the degree to which the OP gives a damn about the issue except as a vehicle for one of his patented (by Horatio Bottomley by the sound of it) rants.

Well, that's probably true, but I was mostly thinking out loud. If the OP has any sensible comment, that's fine. If he hasn't, that's fine too

 

[guinnessdrinker]

The easiest way to deal with it, is to take the attitude that we deserve to be humiliated as punishment for the war in Iraq and for our friendliness to America. But on the other hand, are we being taken advantage of? Like a woman suffering domestic violence and abuse being persuaded it is all her fault, so as to make her feel cowed and unresisting. How do we know we can trust our accusers?

you're a fucking loon. how can you compare both situations

 

[Greebozz]

Certainly felt that way when growing up; it would be almost impossible not to in a country like this where the glorious history - recent and ancient - is piled onto you from every angle including the school exam board, the BBC - in various ways most days of the week, the middle class filmakers of the post-war period.

It's endless propaganda for a vision of this country that never, ever existed.

The only route away from that lifetime of indoctrination is, imo, re-education, otherwise the hardwired emotional reactionsim automatically kicks in, and before you know it, you're waving flags in Trafalgar Square because En-ger-lan have won a cricket match.

Personally I needed to get angry that I'd been subject to all that crap and believed it.

London calling, I genuinely believe that Britains nationalism is very low-key and dignified. It is almost as if out of politeness to other cultures we do not bang our own drum.

Do you honestly feel that you were lied to an manipulated when growing up, that Britain was great, and now you are kicking against it?

I get frustrated by the apparent injustice when comparing Britain with other countries. In my view Iran is being sucked into the vortex of extreme dangerous nationalism. When everyone becomes hyped up with nationalism, reality starts to get distorted. The tiny infringement of Irans waters, does not justify Irans response. I believe the same madness that infected with the people of pre wwar2 Germany, is happening to Iran. It is a merry go round that is impossible to get off.


And to Barking Mad, that quote by Erich Fromm, is very well put, but I ask you what is Britain's nationalism compared to Iran's?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I do think that of course the nation state is a form of collective.

hey man, the UK is a collective! this country is going to a hippy commune next.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You, on the other hand, are not mercenary. You post your callous comments unpaid.

It's not callous.

In the final analysis anyone in the armed services (except perhaps the chaps in the bunkers at the MoD) is paid for precisely that purpose: to kill or be killed, to hold a line. It isn't heroic, it isn't a pleasant fact, but it is a fact nonetheless.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Ah, it's all part of a cunning British plan, is it? The govt or the top brass wanted the Britons to be captured, right?

Bollocks!

The Iranian regime thought it would be useful to have some British hostages, so it took some and is playing a nasty game with them.

No you fucking plonker I was talking about the OP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

no, his statements are plain facts, not callous comments. or his islamophobia affecting your judgment again? however much sympathy I may feel toward those soldiers as a human being held in a foreign environment by enemies, if you join the army, you know the potential consequences. tough.

Exactly. I have compassion for the individuals (and their families) who are caught up in this, but you don't deploy blind to the risks of the job.

And, as I mentioned to Greebozz earlier, the RN has "history" when it comes to "accidentally" drifting into Iranian waters.

 

[Greebozz]

You, on the other hand, are not mercenary. You post your callous comments unpaid.

That my friends, is one deep and pithy comment.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The tiny infringement of Irans waters, does not justify Irans response.

Well actualtly it does. Becasue the US has been making very very loud noises about attacking Iran in the very near future (as well as aprehending IRanians in Iraq) - and the UK is giulty in this by association. Iran has very good reason to be very nervous about a hostile power in their waters and is this is partly an attempt to tell the USuk not to take the piss.

Also we dotn know the facts - the britsh boat may have made a mistake. It may have been spying. It may have been a deliberate act of provoation. We dont know the facts and can trust none of the sources of information.

The USuk would act no differently if it was the other way round - in fact I suspect the iranians would be treated a good deal worse.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Also we dotn know the facts - the britsh boat may have made a mistake. It may have been spying. It may have been a deliberate act of provoation. We dont know the facts and can trust none of the sources of information.

This is probably the most intelligent thing that can be said about this situation if you ask me.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Interesting to note how little the media has made of the fact the US are holding 5 Iranian diplomats in Iraq with no access to anyone whatsoever.

We wouldn't want to look hypocritical now, would we?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Interesting to note how little the media has made of the fact the US are holding 5 Iranian diplomats in Iraq with no access to anyone whatsoever.

We wouldn't want to look hypocritical now, would we?

yes, indeed, it is the first time I heard about it, and I don't read the like of the sun.

 

[likesfish]

sorry what sort of Intel are you going to pick up in a rib that you couldn't get from a fucking great frigate thats laden down with sensors and a helicopter.
not even the royal navy go spying in the middle of the day and stop off to search merchant ships on there way
irans playing silly buggers again

 

[Barking_Mad]

And to Barking Mad, that quote by Erich Fromm, is very well put, but I ask you what is Britain's nationalism compared to Iran's?

Im not claiming Iran's nationalism is good either, it's treatment of certain sections of society is to me abhorent. They're all shit, period.

 

[Greebozz]

To be frank, I think you're labouring under an illusion about the degree to which the OP gives a damn about the issue except as a vehicle for one of his patented (by Horatio Bottomley by the sound of it) rants.

Violentpanda, you really crack me up, you are the big anti war man. But you are the most vindictive, aggressive and warlike person I have come across on this message forum. You don't see the irony in this. Your anti war stance is not genuine in my view. But rather a means to attack people and politicians you hate more.

Your many accusations about the sort of person I am, are designed to dehumanise me. To take away my right to have an opinion. You don't realise that if you magnified your actions, as if you were a head of state, you would be a Stalin, a Mugabe or Pol Pot. You Sir are an odious dangerous person.

 

[Barking_Mad]

According to reports.......

United States troops raided an Iranian office in northern Iraq on 11 January 2007 and detained five employees.[1] "Around 5.00 a.m., after disarming the guards they (U.S. troops) entered into the office, and arrested five employees," the official IRNA news agency claimed, adding that documents and computers were seized.[2][3] As of March 28, 2007, the fate of the detained employees is not known.

According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, the detained Iranians had been working in Irbil with official sanction, but that their liaison office had not yet become a full consulate.[4]

This is not the first time the United states has arrested alleged Iranian Revolutionary Guard members in Iraq. A few weeks before, U.S. forces in Iraq released alleged Iranian IRGC members (29 December 2006) who were detained for alleged weapons smuggling after a raid conducted 21 December in Baghdad. [5][6]

According to U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack, the detainees were not diplomats.[7] However, Hoshyar Zebari, a Kurd and Iraq's foreign minister, said that the Iranians were working in a "liaison office" in Irbil with government approval and was in the process of being approved as a "consulate". Iraqi and Iranian officials initially had claimed the Iranian office was a diplomatic mission.[8]

According to Iranian officials, five United States helicopters landed on the roof of the alleged liaison office in the northern city of Irbil. American soldiers entered the building, detained five people and took away materials, Iranian officials said.[9]

According to two Kurdish officials multinational forces detained as many as six Iranians in an overnight raid on Tehran's supposed diplomatic mission in the northern city of Irbil, just hours after George W. Bush gave details about his new military plan for Iraq. The forces stormed the Iranian office at about 3 a.m., detaining the five staffers and confiscating computers and documents, two senior local Kurdish officials said.[10]

A resident living near the office said the force used stun bombs in the raid and brought down an Iranian flag that was on the roof of the two-story yellow house. As the operation went on, two helicopters flew overhead, said the resident on condition of anonymity because he feared retribution.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_attack_on_Iranian_liaison_office_in_Arbil

 

[Greebozz]

I feel really terrible now, about the awful thing I have said about my dear friend violentpanda, sorry old chum.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Violentpanda, you really crack me up, you are the big anti war man. But you are the most vindictive, aggressive and warlike person I have come across on this message forum. You don't see the irony in this. Your anti war stance is not genuine in my view. But rather a means to attack people and politicians you hate more.

Your many accusations about the sort of person I am, are designed to dehumanise me. To take away my right to have an opinion. You don't realise that if you magnified your actions, as if you were a head of state, you would be a Stalin, a Mugabe or Pol Pot. You Sir are an odious dangerous person.

a stalin, mugabe, pol pot you really are getting excited, aren't you? there is a difference being rather aggressive on a bulletin board behind a computer screen, and facing you commanding officer during exercise knowing you could face reality any time during war time. unlike you, I assume, VP has known both and knows what he is talking about. and VP is not running for prime minister, last time I looked at it.