The Holocaust: Inevitable??
- Thread starter kakuma
- Start date
there are way too many different arguments and hypotheses on this thread now
it's really interesting, but reading back through it makes my brain go off in loads of different directions....
one of the things that got me thinking about this, was watching "A warning from History" not that long ago, and there was a quote from a German Jew in 1940 along the lines of
"the veneer society has been stripped away, and now they are allowed to act out their prejudices against us"
it's the same today, capitalist society is a veneer, there are constantly much darker undercurrents just below the surface. the way capitalism is based on master-servant relationships requires invisible (or visible) fences to be put around different types of people, and it seems inevitable to me that the charade will come crashing down at certain points in history...
it's really interesting, but reading back through it makes my brain go off in loads of different directions....
one of the things that got me thinking about this, was watching "A warning from History" not that long ago, and there was a quote from a German Jew in 1940 along the lines of
"the veneer society has been stripped away, and now they are allowed to act out their prejudices against us"
it's the same today, capitalist society is a veneer, there are constantly much darker undercurrents just below the surface. the way capitalism is based on master-servant relationships requires invisible (or visible) fences to be put around different types of people, and it seems inevitable to me that the charade will come crashing down at certain points in history...
Idaho
continuity character
ZWord said:
It would like to be about truth. At times it would make bold claims about truth. But the best it actually achieves is plausibility.
Were you and I to go out for lunch today and have a long but relatively simple conversation about, say, politics. Tomorrow we could both write up a definitive version of the conversation and produce two different narratives.
History happened longer ago, had more people and is far more complex. Any narrative that claims to be truth is immediately suspect.
Idaho said:
Classic, but all narratives claim to be truth in some sense, simply by being narratives. Even in fiction, when I read say, a dick francis novel, I don't doubt that the fictional character is attempting to tell me the truth as he saw it in the dick francis world, as opposed to lying to me. And if it's non-fiction then the assumption is that it's in this world that these things happened.
Actually, you've got a good point there about the history thing, and historians would be a lot more honest if they told their stories as stories about themselves than as stories about realities that they never saw.
It's something that often bothers me, I mean imagine, if there were going to be historians of the future trying to work out what was really going on the last 20 years, and they based their work on watching all the news reports and reading all the newspapers, but didn't have access to much else, they could get a totally distorted picture.
Idaho said:
it depends on your opinion of the human race....
but imo the resentments are based on material circumstances more than anything else, anti-semitism being the most extreme example "jews own all the banks and diamonds etc, they are to blame...."
of course it's impossible to prove, but people tend to get on better when they have the chance to escape from capitalist thinking, regardless of race or any other factors. look at those 'teambuilding excercises' where they try to get people who work in the same office to be friends by making them all go rock climbing and shit. the philosophy being put them in a human environment rather than a dehumanised one (like an office) and they will treat each other as human beings instead of 'the boss' and 'the worker'
Capitalism does make people behave very unnaturally.
In a normal reality, if I went up to someone, and asked if I could help them with their work, or do it for them, they'd probably, say, sure.
In a capitalist reality, if I did this, they'd be utterly astounded, and probably think I was either crazy or trying to steal their job, and either way, they'd certainly say no, whether or not they enjoyed their job.
That's crazy. We live in a world where people are turned against each other, in order to hold onto jobs that they don't really want, but have to keep to survive.
In a normal reality, if I went up to someone, and asked if I could help them with their work, or do it for them, they'd probably, say, sure.
In a capitalist reality, if I did this, they'd be utterly astounded, and probably think I was either crazy or trying to steal their job, and either way, they'd certainly say no, whether or not they enjoyed their job.
That's crazy. We live in a world where people are turned against each other, in order to hold onto jobs that they don't really want, but have to keep to survive.
lobster
Well-Known Member
ZWord said:Capitalism does make people behave very unnaturally.
In a normal reality, if I went up to someone, and asked if I could help them with their work, or do it for them, they'd probably, say, sure.
In a capitalist reality, if I did this, they'd be utterly astounded, and probably think I was either crazy or trying to steal their job, and either way, they'd certainly say no, whether or not they enjoyed their job.
That's crazy. We live in a world where people are turned against each other, in order to hold onto jobs that they don't really want, but have to keep to survive.
In the present reality, i am more than willing for you to do my coursework
on a serious side, i understand your train of thought..
its the me me me mentalitiy, of course not everybody abides to it.
In response to history having possiblities of being largely varied, which i by no means deny, science and technology could be exempt from the rule, as long as vigourous standards are applied to research , reports, findings etc.. which according to science journals there is not.
Social history on the other hand, which is really the subject we are looking at can be told in any fashion, however bazarre is may sound after so many times of repetition people will believe it.
I don;t know who said this but its largely true...
this is not verbatim.......
"history is told by its winners"
Idaho
continuity character
Ninjaboy said:
Because it isn't real life. There is no pressure. It's just people having fun climbing some rocks. Try putting their food and shelter at the top of the rocks, take away the instructors and tell them they all have to get up or they won't eat that night. Then you might see more conflict and a distinct heirarchy forming.
Idaho
continuity character
A reasonable example, but incomplete.ZWord said:
How about one person producing scientific data about sea-level rises. A second person could argue that this showed the 'truth about global warming'. In fact it only presents a smaller truth, not necessarily the larger truth that the second person adds to it.
I could produce evidence where the Nazis and the German Communist Party united for a major Berlin Transport strike in the early 30s - they actually did. However from that 'truth' I could go on to present various theories that are beyond truth and toward a possible historical narrative of what was going on at the time.
Idaho said:
fair point, but places like offices are not about survival. nobody in an office is fighting for their food and shelter, they are fighting about shit all. the point was that the environment created within capitalism replicates the whole 'group of cavemen' mentality, and it's inevitable that with that skewed thinking, people will eventually start saying 'fuck it, lets act like savages'
(talk about going off the point
)A good thought..
But the older people get, in general, the less possible they think it is, and what's possible is mainly defined by what people think is possible, and unfortunately, the older people get, in general the more power they have over the evolution of their society.
But the older people get, in general, the less possible they think it is, and what's possible is mainly defined by what people think is possible, and unfortunately, the older people get, in general the more power they have over the evolution of their society.
Idaho
continuity character
Ninjaboy said:that was a 666 post
i don't agree at all, the reason people imagine a better world is because it is possible (cheesy i know....)
It was 6666!
Humans aren't satisfied. Ask people 800 years ago if they would be happy with no more plague, typhus or leprosy and year round crops and fodder for animals and they would think you were describing a paradise.
Ask people 200 years ago about 5 day working weeks, indoor plumbing and 90% literacy and they would think such a place fantastical.
Ask people 50 years ago about all houses having indoor bathrooms, hot water, tvs, 90% car ownership, 35 hour week, universal healthcare and they would too think it paradise.
People want more stuff, better stuff, the same as x and y stuff. We struggle and fight against satisfaction. Economic growth, growth in investments, more friends, more s3x, more drugs, the best party ever, the greatest rock album in the world ever, the greatest film of all time. Bigger d1cks, bigger t1ts, bigger post counts, more people love us, 15 % extra, 50% extra, 50% off - cheaper, faster better... etc...
Idaho said:
On the OP. i still think ssuch horors as the Holocaust come from inherrant problems of human kind. Born out of an un checked, super competitive tribal survival driving forc. it is that force that creates systems such as capitlism which takes on a survival instinct of it's own, IYSWIM. Leaving work so not thought this out totally.
But anyway I think it's dangerous to lay these sort of travesties soley at the feet of one particular political or economic system. We are human. We must know what it is to be human and realise our failings and potentials, good and bad. That's the only way to avoid such things in the future.
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