Jorum
Well-Known Member
Not to go off on a tangent but that's not really true. I can't think of any wars or battles that have been decided by champions.
The Haka
- Thread starter Gingerman
- Start date
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
Jorum
Well-Known Member
What's going on with guy to right of middle. He seems to be making a lot more contact than the other guys. Is he trying a subtle thrust?Gladiators
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
He's doing his own private haka
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
That wasn't me. They choke in world cups, but bottlers they most definitely ain't
Agreed again. However, NZ and the other PIs are the only sides allowed to gain such advantage in such a way. Of these, NZ are the only ones who then have the cheek to not only dictate when that advantage takes place, but also how it should be responded to. They then cloak that in 'spirituality' to avoid some of the more obvious questions. Why should other countries kowtow to that?
Agreed. Observe though, if you will, the 'change' in the Haka since it has become the leitmotif of Adidas' incredibly expensive sponsorship of the ABs. It has grown into the monster it now is as the bastard offspring of their corporate greed and the ABs win-at-all-costs mentality
That's why I get worked up
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
I mean, look at this comedy haka from the 70s. The halcyon days of amateurism; it was a bit of fun, really, wasn't it? Nice for the crowd and all that. Bit of thigh slapping and hopping about. Very quaint. Not the muscle straining, gurning, alpha male psyops bollocks that they wheel out these days
coccinelle
Active Member
Here's a few:
"The Battle of Champions was a Scottish clan battle fought in 1478 between members of the Clan Gunn and Clan Keith in Caithness, in the Scottish Highlands.
It is recorded that the feud began when Dugald, Chieftain of the Keiths, abducted Helen of Braemore, daughter of Lachlan Gunn, when he discovered the she was betrothed to Alexander Gunn. The attack occurred on the night before the wedding, and Alexander was one of those slain by the Keiths. Helen subsequently committed suicide by throwing herself off Ackergill Tower. Subsequent conflicts between the two clans were for the most part indecisive, and losses were numerous on both sides. After long querelling between the Keiths and Gunns it was decided that a "battle of chmpions" would be fought between twelve men on horseback on either side. However the Keiths arrived with two men on each of their twelve horses"
"The Battle of the 300 Champions was a battle fought in roughly 545 BC between Argos and Sparta. Rather than commit full armies both sides agreed to pitting 300 of their best men against each other. After a bloody battle only three men remained, two Argives and one Spartan. The Argives claimed that because of numerical superiority they had won the battle and returned home. The lone Spartan, however, declared victory for Sparta since he was the last soldier to maintain his proper post on the battlefield and constructed a victory shrine for Sparta. Argos did not take too kindly to this and sent their entire hoplite army which was met by a Spartan force of equal magnitude. The Spartans won a decisive victory and as a result gained control of Thyreatis."
"The Persians, who were one of the first non-Arab people, on whom the Muslims fell upon, had a tradition of single combat, which they used in many battles. The strongest person from each army would fight the champion of the adversary’s army. The winner’s army would be deemed to have won the battle, and the actual battle was not then fought, as both the armies were honor-bound to abide by the result of the duel. The duel was a test of strength and skill. The opponents were not bound to kill their adversary, but only to defeat him, and in most cases the defeated champion was allowed to return to his camp, and his army withdrew thus preventing a battle and saving of many lives. The Persians, the pre-Islamic Turks, the Greeks and Romans had used this practice of single-combat to settle the result of many a battle. This practice was fine as long as both the adversaries were bound by honor. "
Also, the battle between David and Goliath was a battle of champions. This was quite a common way of settling disputes in the days of Saul.
A fantastic tradition with its roots in Maori spirituality, and which reflects the vitality and multiculturalism of the land of the long cloud. It in no way confers extra advantage on the team that performs it by giving them the opportunity to psyche themselves up and their opponents out immediately prior to kick off. It also in no way reflects the machine-like professionalism of the side, who wouldn't use every means at their disposal - fair or foul- to secure the win that their public demands. Neither is it a useful marketing tool for their sponsors, Adidas, who never use it in their advertising campaigns.
There
I believe you're Welsh right? In which case you a) have no right to comment on rugby (being utterly utterly shite at it - oh except 1953
) and b) no right to comment on patriotic gestures pre-match. The world yawns as your fucking valley dirge (sometimes 2 or 3 of em) drones on. Comment when you've sorted either of those two things. Ta.
Guess what cuntychops - NZ is actually a culturally integrated country. Something this shithole can only dream of. We (yes, even the pakeha) learn both Maori and the haka in school from the age of 5. So yeh - comment when you've gained some kind of knowledge, you're only making yourself look like a classic British cock. Cheers.
Jorum
Well-Known Member
Hmm. OK. But the clan conflicts were not major events. Also note that the Keiths cheated and the Greeks ended up having a full scale battle anyway.
I was thinking more along the lines of Canae, Beneventum, Hastings etc.
Anyway. Back to thread - the Haka is stupid alpha male "look at my massive todger" "I'm well hard" crap and has become interminably dull.
I was thinking more along the lines of Canae, Beneventum, Hastings etc.
Anyway. Back to thread - the Haka is stupid alpha male "look at my massive todger" "I'm well hard" crap and has become interminably dull.
As dull as slaughtering 80% of an indigenous population?
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
I believe you're Welsh right? In which case you a) have no right to comment on rugby (being utterly utterly shite at it - oh except 1953
Comment when you've sorted either of those two things. Ta.
What? You'd wouldn't have ussinging our anthem either
Too much, I say, too much!
And in terms of a nation not being very good at something automatically negating its right to talk about it.......best you stfu about music, eh?
What? You'd wouldn't have ussinging our anthem either
Too much, I say, too much!
And in terms of a nation not being very good at something automatically negating its right to talk about it.......best you stfu about music, eh?
Yep. Cheers for stereophonics.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Bravo! *claps limply*
So your proud history of linguistic and social integration gives you guys the right to dictate when and how you can do your pixie dance on our fucking soil in our fucking stadium, and how we responds to it.
Righto!
Our proud history of leek cultivation should allow us to bare our arses to your sorry 'tradition' in the manner of our pleasing.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Nope, it just gives us the right to beat you to dust game after game, year after year. You're shit and don't you just know it. Even with a kiwi coach.
Anyway - here's the kiwi media take on it.
I hope it explains a little to you Bendeus. There's general bemusement at the British obsession with the haka.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4773523a10295.html
I hope it explains a little to you Bendeus. There's general bemusement at the British obsession with the haka.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4773523a10295.html
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
A right you exercise with vigorous aplomb every fucking year. Still, I'm 35 now, and figure at some point before I die I'll see us take you bastards down. At that point I'll do my very own, special 'cock out' Haka all the way down Queen Street in a manner befitting of the hoariest Taffy elder
Jorum
Well-Known Member
Well that's just a non-sequitur.
The native populations of New Zealand and other islands were treated brutally by Europeans (although they were also pretty cruel and brutal to each other, as is the way of humans). How that should impact having a haka at the start of every rugby match I'm not sure. Not as if South Africa and Australia haven't experienced such things.
Both those countries have gone a slightly different route in terms of integration. Ie, the wrong route.
The level of ignorance amongst the British about the difference between the three countries and the different approaches taken by their rulers is quite stunning to me. I've lived in the UK for ten years and still people routinely mix up the Aussie/Kiwi thing. Absurd.
Imagine asking a welshman what part of Glasgow he's from?
I have to put up with such ignorance on a daily basis, and then read satirical pieces in the paper about how dumb the yanks are.Have any of u brave internet warriors have actually been to NZ? Hmm.. Jorum?
Everything's just peachy, then.
Jorum
Well-Known Member
Well I'm not interested in starting an argument over it.
I haven't been to NZ. I would like to go but it is pretty expensive flight so probably never gonna happen.
Also please don't assuming that all British people are stupid or ignorant. That's just reverse xenophobics. Besides my wife is Kazakhstan and could accuse us all of being ignorant because we don;t know the differences between the former soviet nations etc..
I have no particular ignorance over australia/new zealand/south africa differences. I think I see your point that Australia for example would not use indiginous rituals as they are still treated as an underclass. (although given there are hundreds of indiginous groups in Australia whose rituals they'd use anyway is a problem)
I do not draw as strong a link as you between racial history and integration and rugby is the rub of it.
I assume to you the Haka is of cultural importance and therefore it's inclusion in rugby is taken as a positive sign of Maori cultural influence and integration.
Having never been to New Zealand and having not spoken with any Maoris about it I cannot comment on how and if this truly eflects wider integration and cultural equality in general NZ life.
I'm gonna bow out now anyway cos the threads only gonna get more and more heated.
Basically some of us think it's a strange/silly or unfair "tradition". While to you that view is seen as insulting to a culture I guess.
I haven't been to NZ. I would like to go but it is pretty expensive flight so probably never gonna happen.
Also please don't assuming that all British people are stupid or ignorant. That's just reverse xenophobics. Besides my wife is Kazakhstan and could accuse us all of being ignorant because we don;t know the differences between the former soviet nations etc..
I have no particular ignorance over australia/new zealand/south africa differences. I think I see your point that Australia for example would not use indiginous rituals as they are still treated as an underclass. (although given there are hundreds of indiginous groups in Australia whose rituals they'd use anyway is a problem)
I do not draw as strong a link as you between racial history and integration and rugby is the rub of it.
I assume to you the Haka is of cultural importance and therefore it's inclusion in rugby is taken as a positive sign of Maori cultural influence and integration.
Having never been to New Zealand and having not spoken with any Maoris about it I cannot comment on how and if this truly eflects wider integration and cultural equality in general NZ life.
I'm gonna bow out now anyway cos the threads only gonna get more and more heated.
Basically some of us think it's a strange/silly or unfair "tradition". While to you that view is seen as insulting to a culture I guess.
But the British sides have far better songs and when the fans start singing them during a game this arguably has a bigger morale boosting effect.
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
That's nice, if only we could dream of reaching the integrated intellectual heights expressed in your last couple of posts.
Shame you don't extend your integration to the Asian citizens in your midst, how the NZ Suppression of Terrorism Act is typically used against the Maori, how your nation welcomes the W. Indian cricket team with the charming slogan "It's all white here", Paul Moon's book "This Horrid Practice" and Auckland University of Technology's defence of it, Peter de Villiers claiming racism is rife in New Zealand, and Massey University producing a report decried as "...racism to the max" but try not to let on about any of that eh? Stick with the neo-mystical land of milk & honey angle, much better for tourism.
The Groke
hot hail/Paging Dr. Beat
mattie
missing in inaction
Both those countries have gone a slightly different route in terms of integration. Ie, the wrong route.
The level of ignorance amongst the British about the difference between the three countries and the different approaches taken by their rulers is quite stunning to me. I've lived in the UK for ten years and still people routinely mix up the Aussie/Kiwi thing. Absurd.
Imagine asking a welshman what part of Glasgow he's from?
Have any of u brave internet warriors have actually been to NZ? Hmm.. Jorum?
I've been, if that's a pre-requisite for commentary. Not sure where this cultural utopia exists, certainly not anywhere I went. Nowhere near the state of Oz, of course, which suffers pretty direct and socially accepted (if tacitly) discrimination against aboriginese. In NZ the main difference was the level of respect afforded. It certainly wasn't integrated though.
Back on topic, I think the problem most people have with the haka is that it trumps other people's customs - the fandango in Wales, for example, refusing to perform it before the national anthems. Was that because it would lose its intimidatory/motivational aspect?
I've no problems with it being respected, but not laid down to.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
highly ritualised clan-warfare that died and died hard when Pax Romana came stomping down
