GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
fixed it for you ...CyberRose said:
The Haifa Declaration
- Thread starter moono
- Start date
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
GarfieldLeChat said:
Lets start with the following:
A minimum of 150,000 ukp per person for everyone affected when the state of Israel was created. Not just those 600,000 directly displaced but the whole 4.9million descendants.
A state in the west bank for the Palestinians.
An international effort / help to increase educational and business opportunities for Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
Medium term support for Palestinian exports.
Reparations for physical damage done to property etc.
Infrastructure replacement (roads railways water fuel etc) in the west bank
Backing of small NGO's who undertake reconcilliation work.
An agreement with neighbouring Arab states (those that aint basket cases that is) that they will not interfere in the peace process for their own ends.
A Palestinian representative office / head of govt office in Jerusalem ie shared soverieignty of the city with a UN overseer in absolute authority.
Do this and the Palestinians and the Israeli's might just have a chance of living peacefully side by side.
Fanatical moderation is a whole lot better than some of the alternatives I'm seeing on here.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Well not so sure!GarfieldLeChat said:fixed it for you ...
Any solution has to be something both sides can realistically agree to, Israel won't agree to 48 borders so it's pretty pointless to suggest that they could. Likewise with the issue of the right to return, another point Israel will never agree to so again pretty pointless to suggest. And of course on the other side of the coin, suggesting that the settlements in the West Bank can stay under Israeli control will never be accepted by the Palestinians so pointless to suggest that too.
The Palestinians have shown in the past they would accept something on the lines of 67 borders, and I think there are a great many people in Israel who regard the settlements as a security burden (or just plain wrong), it's just getting their voices heard above the religionists and settlers in the Knesset who form a powerful block...
Many Palestinians, including those in the diaspora, will harbour desires for the return of their homes irrespective of what 'nice' boundaries might be agreed upon by those with commercial and strategic interests. That's why One State is better than two.
One democratic State in the name of peace. Fuck the bloody Zionists.
One democratic State in the name of peace. Fuck the bloody Zionists.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
moono said:
One state will be a bloodbath. Do you really want that?
Theres been far too much death and hatred on both sides. Why not work for peace rather than a 'solution' that will see the death of millions and the destabilisation of the whole region.
Much better to look at what is practical and would cause the least loss of life.
CyberRose
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But Israel will never agree to that (unless it is one state as it currently is totally under Israeli control with one set of peoples defined as 'sub-citizens') so to suggest such a solution is not only pure fantasy, it is also very dangerous because if that is what people are suggesting the Palestinians hold out for all that be will achieved is a prolonged conflict and even more dead...moono said:
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
CyberRose said:
Agreed.
KJ;
That is the One State alternative, a democracy for all.
So Zionism disappears, who cares ?
A Palestinian victory is a demographic certainty. Hence the feverish building of walls and renewed ethnic cleansing frenzy. Even so, Zionism's great supporter, backbone in fact, will itself undergo major demographic change within fifty years. How is a Latino America going to view separation barriers and 'jewish' exclusivity ?
It isn't a very bright prospect for Zionism, I'm extremely happy to point out.
That is the One State alternative, a democracy for all.
So Zionism disappears, who cares ?
A Palestinian victory is a demographic certainty. Hence the feverish building of walls and renewed ethnic cleansing frenzy. Even so, Zionism's great supporter, backbone in fact, will itself undergo major demographic change within fifty years. How is a Latino America going to view separation barriers and 'jewish' exclusivity ?
It isn't a very bright prospect for Zionism, I'm extremely happy to point out.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
KeyboardJockey said:
One state already is a bloodbath, it's called Gaza.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
moono said:
What about the inhabitants of Israel? Should they disappear? The one state solution would just mean even more bloodshed. Democracy is a fine and noble aim but the democracy of the mob is not something to be admired.
Why don't you support those on the ground who are working for peace rather than supporting a 'solution' that will cause more bloodshed?
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
nino_savatte said:
Sadly you are right with Palestinian attacking Palestinian.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
KeyboardJockey said:
And the IDF shelling it willy-nilly. The ratio of dead Gazans to dead Israelis must be 20:1.
Then there's the literal starvation of the place by Israel....I could continue.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
nino_savatte said:
And rockets coming from Gaza into Israel and so the bloodshed goes on.
Like the North of Ireland / Ulster no hands are clear of blood in this situation.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
KeyboardJockey said:
Nonetheless, the numbers of Palestinian deaths dwarfs those Israelis killed by bombs, guns etc.
As far as NI is concerned, the British state created a situation that it later tried to blame on the Republican movement. Meanwhile the Unionists and Loyalists carved up all the jobs between themselves and left the Catholics with nothing.
A very familiar picture is beginning to emerge.
IIRC, Chaim Weizman was an Ulsterman.
rhys gethin
New Member
KeyboardJockey said:
It seems fairly clear that the zionists will never agree with any solution that doesn't give them an impossible complete victory, where the millions they have wronged and cheated somehow disappear, which they won't. I notice in several postings the typical colonialist nightmare that - given any justice at all, 'they' will treat 'us' as we treated them - which must be totally dreadful, because we are worth so much more. It is all nonsense, of course, and the solution is obviously a non-religious, non-racist state. What use has Israel ever been to Jewish people? It is just a millstone round their necks, held in place by extreme-right Americans to make them accept what the US does, and help do it. Just think how the (far smaller) wrongs done to the Irish people echo down the long, bloody years! 'Israel' is a madness.
Aye to that.
Further;
In 'Zionism' we're talking about a political movement. There aren't any 'Zionist beings'. I'm not saying that all Israelis are going to be easy to re-educate, not after the decades of Islamophobic and uberjew crap they've been fed , and I'm not saying that there aren't Zionist-equivalent policies on the Palestinian side which also need throwing out with the garbage.
Nevertheless, continue with apartheid and continuous war will result. Look at history. It's demonstrable that apartheid doesn't work and 'TwoStates' is apartheid . This will become more and more evident as Zionism attempts to cope with its 'Israeli Arab' population. Look at their recent apartheid law-in-waiting. They are getting desperate.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=207757
Further;
In 'Zionism' we're talking about a political movement. There aren't any 'Zionist beings'. I'm not saying that all Israelis are going to be easy to re-educate, not after the decades of Islamophobic and uberjew crap they've been fed , and I'm not saying that there aren't Zionist-equivalent policies on the Palestinian side which also need throwing out with the garbage.
Nevertheless, continue with apartheid and continuous war will result. Look at history. It's demonstrable that apartheid doesn't work and 'TwoStates' is apartheid . This will become more and more evident as Zionism attempts to cope with its 'Israeli Arab' population. Look at their recent apartheid law-in-waiting. They are getting desperate.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=207757
In general, no. But in this case, I can't see any other practical solution.nino_savatte said:
I don't like the US or anyone else fixing elections. Electing Hamas was a huge mistake & the Palestinians are the ones who'll have to live with it unless they realize their mistake & throw them out. Where has it gotten them? More war with Israel, civil war with Fatah, & isolation from most of the world community including many Arab countries.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
TomUS said:
I was speaking to a Palestinian recently who knows thepolitics of the situation and he said that a goodly proportion of those who voted for Hamas were Pal Christians who voted for Hamas as a protest vote over Fatah's corruption. The sad fact is now the Pal Christians are now suffering discrimination and violence at the hands of Hamas. I also think that voting Hamas was a huge mistake. Both sides need to realise that voting for extremists is a dead end.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
What about the jews that were thrown out or forced to leave arab countries at the same time as the plaestians were being thrown out .Do they get compensation and a right to return?
Its not as simple as jew bad arab good or arab bad jew good.Israel survied without america and probably would again.
Making the plaestian state viable and a decent place to live would be a first step and then if both people can approach each other as equals maybe a two into one might work .
Its not as simple as jew bad arab good or arab bad jew good.Israel survied without america and probably would again.
Making the plaestian state viable and a decent place to live would be a first step and then if both people can approach each other as equals maybe a two into one might work .
rhys gethin said:
You clearly take the view that Israel as a country has no right to exist, and that a Palestinian-majority run state is what "should" be there in its place. I think that most Israelis won't agree to that, ever. Why submit to that from a position of strength? I wouldn't. Strength and power determines what happens, and it will in this case, as ever.
Giles..
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the problem is that by not doign so it's complict in the original action. the argument is made well other people live their now, so you can't move them off the land, however it was precisely this which was done in the first place in order that those homes were built. you can't reall have an equitable system which says these people by virtue of birth have more land rights than those they displaced.Giles said:
Imagine if you will i came into your home and set up home their and forced you out by aggressive means, would you see it as legitimate if 10 years later when you have been fighting me for your home back i sold it on to someone else? would you see their occupation of your home as legitimate?
put it another way in the uk if i sell you a stolen van, and you then sell this on and the police then recover the van does the person who you sold it to have any legitmate claim on it, or is it returned to the owner or their collection agents (the insurance company or in the case of pal/isr their desendants)
I don't for a second say that this is fair for the people who have, i'll be charitable, unknowingly bought land or property which is stolen however for them to retain the stolen good because it's simpley a matter of the passage of time is unthinkable as well as being morally reprehensable.
it has little to do with relegious notions or racial overtones but about common justice.
GarfieldLeChat said:
But how far back do we go with this?
All over the world, throughout history, there have been mass movements of people, invasions, revolutions, wars, etc, etc. During which people's land and property were usurped by others. In the real world, it is now not possible to right all of these historical wrongs.
Giles..
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
KeyboardJockey said:
paid for by who?
Isreal? not a chance.
KeyboardJockey said:
are we talking contiguious or merely the shotgun pelletted what's left of the west bank? what about the jordan valley and of course the ubquitious jerusalm??
edcuation is the one thing that palestinians have sewn up at present, business trade might be possible but without control of their airspace or water boarders would in effect leave them open to hostage by isreal at any time just as the current taxation theift by isreal has.KeyboardJockey said:
under what auspices? the World bank? the IMF? the UN? The USA? the UK? should isreali produce suffer an inflated artifical pricing structure to allow palestinian goods to be the cheap option? are you suggesting economically crippling isreal to better palestine? again this won't work or be accepted.KeyboardJockey said:
how are you goign to define property? would this include the 'illegal' homes built because isreal refused to issue any building permits? are you talking reperations for uprooted farms olive trees? divertion of water sources, posioning of wells? destruction of roads? annexxation of land? or tv's and steros lost paintings and sofas?KeyboardJockey said:
can't really rebuild the airport there though can you, some how the boarder seems to have encroached some 30 miles inwards and is now the periffery of maala addumim? who'd be doign this rebuildign would palestinian contractors be getting any of this infrastructure work?KeyboardJockey said:
so the money and funds would be as now swallowed up be western organiseations who justify their existance by prolonging the conflict as otherwise they'd be out of a job... that seems a little self defeating...KeyboardJockey said:
so the mentalist arabs they ought to stay out of the white mans buggering around in the region cos whitie knows best yeah?KeyboardJockey said:
I'll bet if the USA and UK got out of iraq fuck off out of afgahnistan and dissappeared from saudi this might be a goer can you really see that happening?
otherwise this is simply racist...
this is a good idea, however it's a central tennent that east J is the captial of Palestine that's not going to be removed ever. also you have to look at the situation with Maala Addumim and the fact that east J is now cut off from the jordan valley and the rest of the west bank by those houses that giles and others wouldn't have people give up... creating hundreds of mini statelets in order to say well palestine is a state now, won't work it needs to be connected to and part of the whole... unless you are proposing the demolision of the ariel maala addumim and so on... are you suggesting that?KeyboardJockey said:
KeyboardJockey said:
no do it and it will look to all intents and purposes as though ireal has gone the extra mile but the reality is that they will have surrendered nothing but that which they had no intention of keeping anyway.
KeyboardJockey said:
there can be no moderation when one side is saying we come in peace shoot to kill and it's being armed by the largest international terrorist state in the world... the usa...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
CyberRose said:
the palestinians have said the 67 boarders would be a start, nothing else. and previous suggestions to this effect have always included the precusor that isreal would be in control of the boarder this will never be accepted, for obvious reasons.
personally i think that only when the governement say actually the army is answerable to us and we will pull the choak chain will there be any movement or sucession....
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
we are talking one persons life time... should we wait til they are dead in order to vailidate the action?Giles said:
more over it's precisely the rhetorice which isreal uses to defend it's taking of the land in the first place i'd sa that pretty much isreal has defined the timescale and it being 2000 years...
or is it that west is allowed to but them ayrabs ain't....
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
one state is there already why cause further divisions?KeyboardJockey said:
the blood bath has been caused by people turning blind eye for business reasons and other vested intrests....
rhys gethin
New Member
Giles said:
There needs to be one state in what is now 'Israel'/Occupied Palestine because nothing else will work. The extreme zionists will not agree to it until the existence of a racist state ceases to be of use to the US, at which point they'll have to - which is why the notion that this is an independent state at all is so wrong. The point about a non-religious, non-racist state is that (given the strongest possible international guarantees) it removes the problem: people have rights as people not as Christians, Muslims or Jews. You can pretend to be living in the Nineteenth Century or the time of Hitler, but none of us do, and while hunter-gatherer peoples can be permanently displaced (because so few), people as advanced as the Palestinians will still be around forever - so what DO you intend to do? No good ranting on about what they should do, because YOU have stolen the land and have all the money, the sophisticated arms and the foreign backing. I don't deal in 'should' but in realities, I hope, and the reality is that the Occupation can have no long-term future, any more than did the Crusader states of the past.
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