The Guardian: a right wing trajectory?

[treelover]

Too right I am, and not afraid to admit it, I hate inequality with the same intensity that some of here quite rightly hate injustices to refugees for example, but which seems more salient and significant on here. In fact, if there is a ‘hierarchy of oppression’ then the question of inequality is very far down the list.

Yet, the levels of inequality in the U.K are reaching dangerous levels: particularly with the growth of home equity allowing people to buy second homes/buy to lets, in poorer countries, M/Class parents ‘decamping’ to areas near prestige school, cuts in benefits, pension breaks for the very rich. Indeed, what we are witnessing is much reduced social mobility and a systemic embedding of inequality, whatever sure start schemes are in existence, which incidentially along with other programmes are to be cut.
But what happens when the predicted recession comes? then Blair and his fellow travelers( and comfortable Britain cynics such as KS) may need to huddle closer together in their gated communities and bijou apartments. The new consensus that ‘everything is for the best in all possible worlds’ a very Victorian idea, could be challenged as never before as UK PLC plc tears itself apart.


Oh,, dear I sounds like one of the terrible socialists , how very 80’s darling,


Now where’s that Sunday supplement? I really must get that new designer lamp ,only 400 pounds

OOO, I sense bitterness here...besides, when was the last time you saw an article in the main newspaper extolling a new interior design fad or a £10,000 table?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The Guardian is not a left-wing paper, it is a liberal paper, who's journalists walk around chipper because they really believe, re:New Labour, that they are part of society's elite.

I doubt you'll find one example in their history of them ever supporting a strike.

They were quite keen on US involvement in Vietnam too.

Mostly, it is full of cultural lifestylism - I can quite easily buy a copy at the weekend and find hardly anything of interesting worth reading, but because it is *this* thick you think you've had your money's worth.

Probably the only columnist of value in the Guardian is Gary Younge.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It is about creation of a reality where "choice" is between two unpalatable versions of the same rotten dish and anything else is classed as eccentric or unrealistic.

That's hardly just the Guardian. It's the point of mainstream politics for a start.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The Guardian is not a left-wing paper, it is a liberal paper, who's journalists walk around chipper because they really believe, re:New Labour, that they are post of society's elite.

Do you *read* the Guardian? It's hardly stuffed with Blair fans.

 

[Isambard]

It’s slightly off topic but as this thread started around a French seafarers strike we can stay “on the continent” I hope.

Unemployment. Yes, Germany has high unemployment. But they are fairly genuine figures as opposed to fake ones. Of the 5 million unemployed maybe a third are in fact only “passing through the system” as in Germany you have to register as unemployed even if you have a couple of weeks between jobs etc to keep in the health system and get National Insurance credits etc. May be a third are long term unemployed aged 50+. There was a big move instigated by Kohl for industry to shed older workers plus of course those thrown on the scrap heap after the collapse of the DDR. They are unemployed but are literally just waiting for their pension. Of the third rest umemployed you will find them VERY regionally concentrated, in the eastern states and in depressed peripheral housing estates of de-industrialising cities.

Eastern Germany – The historical burden that Germany has to carry for the new states is the primary reason for the economic ills, not that workers have better rights than the UK. The pensions time bomb applies more in Germany as Kohl agreed to pay east German pensions out of the pension kitty rather than general taxation and the east Germany paid no money into it. Problems with Immigration? What are they then? Perhaps you mean the continual discrimination and demonisation of immigrants, particularly Turks?

What I’d do?

Unify the competing public health funds and make EVERYONE pay a % into the national insurance system. You can currently tart to opt out of the system once your salary crosses say £20K a year, you’re a company director or are an indentured civil servant.

Would provide more benefits and reduce the marginal cost of labour as well as increasing take home pay. Staggered transfer of the cost of east German pensions from the pension kitty to general taxation pot.

Grant the right to vote and / or citizenship to any adult resident over 12 months.

Consider saying “fuck the ECB 3% rule” and take on new public debt to Keynsian kick start the economy. The proposed 2% rise in VAT isn’t likely to get consumers spending. So I’d reject that. Any holes in the tax income should come from the upper classes who in many cases due to loopholes pay no tax at all, leaving the heaviest burden on people on middling to OK wages. I think the main problem is “consumer confidence”. Germany has amongst the largest saving of any industrialised nations but people won’t spend it. As opposed to the UK of course where people are spending a LOT of money they DON’T have.



---------------

I will come back on the issue of pay and conditions / lay offs later.

 

[greenman]

That's hardly just the Guardian. It's the point of mainstream politics for a start.

Agreed. But there are still those on here who would describe that analysis as "conspiracy theory"

 

[treelover]

does that include illegal immigrants then?

Grant the right to vote and / or citizenship to any adult resident over 12 months.

 

[kyser_soze]

Too right I am, and not afraid to admit it, I hate inequality with the same intensity that some of here quite rightly hate injustices to refugees for example, but which seems more salient and significant on here. In fact, if there is a ‘hierarchy of oppression’ then the question of inequality is very far down the list.

Yet, the levels of inequality in the U.K are reaching dangerous levels: particularly with the growth of home equity allowing people to buy second homes/buy to lets, in poorer countries, M/Class parents ‘decamping’ to areas near prestige school, cuts in benefits, pension breaks for the very rich. Indeed, what we are witnessing is much reduced social mobility and a systemic embedding of inequality, whatever sure start schemes are in existence, which incidentially along with other programmes are to be cut.
But what happens when the predicted recession comes? then Blair and his fellow travelers( and comfortable Britain cynics such as KS) may need to huddle closer together in their gated communities and bijou apartments. The new consensus that ‘everything is for the best in all possible worlds’ a very Victorian idea, could be challenged as never before as UK PLC plc tears itself apart.


Oh,, dear I sounds like one of the terrible socialists , how very 80’s darling,


Now where’s that Sunday supplement? I really must get that new designer lamp ,only 400 pounds

Thing is, I'm not a huge fan of inequality either since it makes my journey to my bijou appartment far more dangerous having to pick my way between the guttersnipes and asbos. However, my concern over the issue stems from the inequality of access to educational resources and a w/c that seems determined to keep itself down - we've been through the argument dozens of times and if my upbringing was even remotely reflective of w/c culture (and living next to a fucking huge estate in London does nothing to alter this view) even if those resources were targeted at those most vulnerable and in need NOTHING would change.

From my perspective inequality of opportunity prevents the most capable and talented reaching their potential which is a waste of resource and talent that could be productive withing the economy. Hell, if you read some of the farming threads I've sugested effectively collectivising the countryside to help make basic foodstuff a zero cost proposition which is hardly the commentary of a rabid capitalist.

But cynical? Damn right. I've travelled to a lot of places and met a lot of people of different political hues and I've yet to meet someone who is 'involved' because they aren't getting something out of it for themselves.

Isambard - thanks for actually answering the question with something concreate as opposed to 'The workers should seize power from the bosses'...

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Do you *read* the Guardian? It's hardly stuffed with Blair fans.

Yes it is.

 

[treelover]

are you including activists on here?, i mean they are all going round in mercedes given in gratitude by the local politburo bosses, arent they ,


BTW, whose to say what you do is useful KS, pushing consumer crap on a people and planet that needs less growth not more...

But cynical? Damn right. I've travelled to a lot of places and met a lot of people of different political hues and I've yet to meet someone who is 'involved' because they aren't getting something out of it for themselves.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

What I love is this idea that's coming through here that workers could in any way never be 'lazy', which is utter bollocks.

Can you show me who has said that and where?

I'm not blaming anyone - German management, as with Britain during the 70s has got as much to blame, but the real culprit is the combination of unions AND bosses AND Workers failing to recognise and adjust the social model over time to cope with the trading world outside Germany. The mess that the German economy is in at the moment is the fault of all parties concerned, govt, business and unions. But your way of looking at the world doesn't allow for that.

I'm sorry, I don't believe this for a moment. We used to get that here thirty years ago and what it actually means is that management are to blame when they don't agressively pursue a model which will enrich them, while workers are to blame when they don't passively accept harder work and greater insecurity.

 

[greenman]

Am I the only person who sniggers a bit when we are presented with
1/ The "evil" of "German consumers' reluctance to spend" i.e. prudence and foresight, and perhaps even an ecologically based aversion to profligate consumption in some cases, and simply living within straightened means in others.
2/ The "marvellous" British economy sustained by reckless borrowing, conspicuous consumption, cheap flights, binge drinking, gambling and gorging to the point of obesity, massive levels of personal debt and an unsustainable property boom.
?

 

[kyser_soze]

are you including activists on here?, i mean they are all going round in mercedes given in gratitude by the local politburo bosses, arent they ,


BTW, whose to say what you do is useful KS, pushing consumer crap on a people and planet that needs less growth not more...

Yeah I do, because despite much rhetoric to the tune of 'we want to build a better world' there's so much hatred, anger and bitterness that this 'better world' would simply be a transition from one shite situaiton to another.

That coupled with the great number of people who seem to mistake 'What would be better for everyone' with 'What I think would be better and if it wasn't it would be shit'.

 

[kyser_soze]

Can you show me who has said that and where?

I'm sorry, I don't believe this for a moment. We used to get that here thirty years ago and what it actually means is that management are to blame when they don't agressively pursue a model which will enrich them, while workers are to blame when they don't passively accept harder work and greater insecurity.

So who would you 'blame' then DF? Since society is an agglomeration of many different actors and an economy is part of that, you're arguing that a single group or actor are to blame?

And TL - I know that what I do in terms of moral worth isn't - I've cheerfully and freely admitted that on a number of occassions on here, but within the wider social context of capitalism it IS useful, and indeed necessary (altho when it comes to it propaganda skills are useful anywhere at any time).

 

[Donna Ferentes]

if my upbringing was even remotely reflective of w/c culture (and living next to a fucking huge estate in London does nothing to alter this view) even if those resources were targeted at those most vulnerable and in need NOTHING would change.

A point. If you want a really crass, resentful and chippy working-class culture, then the way to do it is to encourage an entrepreneurial society. Why? Because it's vastly unequal, because its values are those of the dollar rather than those of civilisation and because it means drastically weakening the single most important element in discuraging crassness and contept for one another, which is the labour movement (and the politics that go with it).

So who would you 'blame' then DF? Since society is an agglomeration of many different actors and an economy is part of that, you're arguing that a single group or actor are to blame?

Blame for what?

 

[kyser_soze]

Hmm, well I grew up in the 70s when this great labour movement thing was supposedl;y at it's zenith of power and I don't recall a great deal of solidarity shown toward the poorest and most at risk on the estate I grew up on - if anything it was the reverse.

And woe betide anyone who sought out an education of any kind. And that's what stuck in my craw a lot when I studied politics and the history of the labour party - the way working men's clubs were places of learning and self-development, that the entreprenuerial spirit - or at least a spirit of self reliance - didn't just have to be directed into self aggrandizement, but could be focussed on coming up with innovative and original ways of helping people. And it was.

And I looked around at where I came from and said 'fuck that', and I've not met anyone who's convinced me that I was wrong - plenty of insults about what a selfish cynical amoral bastard I am but no one convincingly arguing that I was actually wrong

Anyway, this was about the Guardian in the dim and distant past wasn't it?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And woe betide anyone who sought out an education of any kind.

Ah, this is tosh. Many, many people actually became interested in education through the labour movement. The idea that it's some sort of resentment machine is cobblers.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ah, this is tosh. Many, many people actually became interested in education through the labour movement. The idea that it's some sort of resentment machine is cobblers.

So, at the age of 11 when I told my next door neighbour I wanted to go to university and she replied 'That's not for the likes of us' she was in fact encouraging me to do so?

Wow, that's really subtle.

My point was that in the same situaiton 100 years ago I would maybe have had encouragement and support that I had the ability and ambition to 'better' myself through education and that having had that support and encouragement my choices may have been different and possibly more altruisitc then they were.

And I'm not the only person I know who had a similar upbringing to me who experienced the same shit from neighbours, peers at school etc. While there may have been some in the labour movement in the 70s who would encourage such things I never came into contact with them.

 

[Isambard]

You have to put yourself in a different position regarding staff lay offs.

Are workers just like any other resource a factory uses like its raw materials, water, electricity and therefore be able to “switched off” at will? Or does the factory bear some responsibility for its workers?

The “hire ‘em and fire ‘em” attitude propagated by small to medium businesses exposes exactly what these parasites think: workers are a resource there to be used at will for their profit.

Silly example: A student I know in Germany works in a bakers shop part time. For a spurious reason they decided to cut his pay from € 8 to € 7 an hour. When he objected he got the sack with the foaming-at-the-mouth rant: “This isn’t a communist country, if I decide to cut the pay I will and if the staff don’t like it I’ll sack them”. Such nasty pricks are only encouraged by the recent election result.

It is of course patently UNTRUE that there is no flexibility in an employer hiring staff for peaks and being able to end the employment when the staff are no longer needed. You can hire staff via an agency or directly on fixed term contracts. The condition being that it is limited to 2 years in each case. And sorry, if you still need the staff after 4 years I think they are entitled to a full time contract.

Incidently I just read in a trade paper today that a major name is moving some operations back from Slovakia to Germany. It might be easier to “dispose” of workers in eastern EU states and currently cheaper on a simply hourly rate but those hourly rates are rising and the productivity and quality of the output is not as high as in Germany. Indeed in real terms, take home pay in Germany has been stagnating if not falling for years which is why consumers are unwilling to spend what they do have.


@ greenman, the number of "illegals" in Germany is tiny compared to the legal long term residents, many even BORN there who are denied the right to vote or citizenship.

Being "illegal" is something that the system makes you, not that you aren't a part of society.

 

[belboid]

My point was that in the same situaiton 100 years ago I would maybe have had encouragement and support that I had the ability and ambition to 'better' myself through education and that having had that support and encouragement my choices may have been different and possibly more altruisitc then they were.

maybe, maybe not. Of course there is no unanimity amongst w-c people that education is a good thing in and of itself, some reject it out of lack of self-belief, some out ofa kind of anti-middleclassism (which sounds like the response you got), some out of a silly bit of bigotry. Always has been, always will be. Probably got a bit worse from the sixties as the long boom ended, and 'sink estates' really started springing up.

And I'm not the only person I know who had a similar upbringing to me who experienced the same shit from neighbours, peers at school etc. While there may have been some in the labour movement in the 70s who would encourage such things I never came into contact with them.

I know really loads of people who got an educatin thanks to their involvement in the labour movement, miners who were politicised by the 84 strike, post office workers who spent there saturdays in Aigburth library readng marx cos they'd l;earnt about the class struggle at work, etc etc. Seriously, there have been vast number thus inspired. Ruskin College has never been short of applicants.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

So, at the age of 11 when I told my next door neighbour I wanted to go to university and she replied 'That's not for the likes of us' she was in fact encouraging me to do so?

Right, that's something to do with the labour movement, is it? That's representative of the labour movement, is it? Do better.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well she was a union member and labour supporter so was part of the labour movement. I was also making the point about the lack suport for ambition that I still see among those who either classify themselves as w/c...

Fair point from Belboid there - must be a regional thing or something then, but IME and of people who went through the same thing it's not uncommon to find the opposite being true as well.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

My point was that in the same situation 100 years ago I would maybe have had encouragement and support that I had the ability and ambition to 'better' myself through education and that having had that support and encouragement my choices may have been different and possibly more altruisitc then they were.

Incidentally, is this not the most atrocious nonsense? Are we really going to suggest that working-class aspirations to higher education were greater and more likely to be encouraged in the Edwardian age than in the Seventies?

 

[kyser_soze]

From what I've read there was a lot of support from within the w/c for those who sought to make something of themselves. That they had to face shit from the rest of society and relied on their families, communities and associations for support.

There was no 'official' encouragement, but then outside of grants there wasn't a lot during the 70s and 80s either really - and no I'm not suggesting that the opportunity was there, just that MY EXPERIENCE of growing up in a w/c community showed some massive disparities between the way they thought and the way their forebears felt about life.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

From what I've read there was a lot of support from within the w/c for those who sought to make something of themselves. That they had to face shit from the rest of society and relied on their families, communities and associations for support.

That's not a real answer. Are you suggesting - and do you think the historical record would support the suggestion - that this was greater in the 1910s than the 1970s? I put to you that it is an absurd suggestion.

 

[butchersapron]

One of the most notable characteristics of the 'British Labour Movement' has been it's longstanding concern with w/c self-education (Plebs league, WEA, Miners librarys, independent schools etc) - much more so than in other countires labour movements - this is about as mainstream a view as you can get btw

 

[Donna Ferentes]

One of the most notable characteristics of the 'British Labour Movement' has been its longstanding concern with w/c self-education (Plebs league, WEA, Miners librarys, independent schools etc) - much more so than in other countires labour movements - this is about as mainstream a view as you can get btw

I would have said so, yes. I think in terms of numbers, though, it must necessarily vary significantly from period to period.

 

[belboid]

One of the most notable characteristics of the 'British Labour Movement' has been it's longstanding concern with w/c self-education (Plebs league, WEA, Miners librarys, independent schools etc) - much more so than in other countires labour movements - this is about as mainstream a view as you can get btw

indeed, its long been a theory of mine that those educational opportunities were a major reason for the comparative success of the late 19th/early 20th century socialist movements, that ability to offer the opportunitoies that were denied to them by thew boss class.

 

[greenman]

@ greenman, the number of "illegals" in Germany is tiny compared to the legal long term residents, many even BORN there who are denied the right to vote or citizenship.

Being "illegal" is something that the system makes you, not that you aren't a part of society.

The footloose "countryless" I was referring to in my earlier post, if this is what you are referring to, was not "illegals" but the young internationalist bourgeoisie lauded by Garton Ash, who have taken Paine's "My Country is the world and my religion is to do good" or whatever it was, and turned it into "Our country to exploit is the world and our religion is to make money"

Or have you confused me with another poster?

 

[greenman]

indeed, its long been a theory of mine that those educational opportunities were a major reason for the comparative success of the late 19th/early 20th century socialist movements, that ability to offer the opportunitoies that were denied to them by thew boss class.

Indeed, "EDUCATE, Agitate, Organise!"