The Green Party and the left

[nwnm]

Whats wrong with that
Better than having a bunch of dungereed middle class lesbians or limp wristed homosexuals destroying the horny handed sons of toils working class image.

Incidentely, I know that I have brought this up before but do you know anything about any of these groups gay/lesbian, womens, black/coloured? factions: womens voice, spark, GLF's involvment with PIE;

I'm sure you've brought this up before - what is your agenda? Why are you trying to link gays with child abusers? <there is no link beyond the ravings of the rabid right btw, and this sort of crap was dealt with years ago in the TRB song 'Glad to be Gay'>. Neither are there any links with the left and the Paedophile Information Exchange <except the Sparts of course who support the Man Boy Love Association in the USA>. Why are you trying to derail a discussion on Greens and the left into this sort of tittle tattle? Oh, and haven't you claimed to be a member of the SP on previous threads only to be challenged by other SP'ers who A) don't believe you and B) don't agree with you?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I must admit I was a bit disappointed by this thread (and all the others like it going back for years) because it just seemed (with a few minor exceptions like Nigel Irritable's useful insight above) to consist of the usual slagging followed by a load of old sect gossip of no real relevance to anything useful.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I mean, I'm sure it's quite important within any given sect to demonstrate ideological purity by slagging middle class hippies or discussing what the judean peoples front said about the people's front of judea in 1981, but it doesn't really get us anywhere outside the context of that sect does it?

 

[treelover]

hear, hear,




though the SWP are fair game

 

[Nigel]

Those who do not learn the lessons form history.........

I'm sure you've brought this up before - what is your agenda? Why are you trying to link gays with child abusers? <there is no link beyond the ravings of the rabid right btw, and this sort of crap was dealt with years ago in the TRB song 'Glad to be Gay'>. Neither are there any links with the left and the Paedophile Information Exchange <except the Sparts of course who support the Man Boy Love Association in the USA>. Why are you trying to derail a discussion on Greens and the left into this sort of tittle tattle? Oh, and haven't you claimed to be a member of the SP on previous threads only to be challenged by other SP'ers who A) don't believe you and B) don't agree with you?

For your information there are other groups on the Left and Anarchist movement who have taken the line of supporting, have members who have openly come out with letters of support for 'intergenerational sexual relationships'. Groups whom I have heard this off of first hand: Campaign Against Fascism In Europe, Poision Pen(Paper by Anarchists In Hastings), Anarchy (Desire Armed).

I'm sure the Green/Environmental movement has had its fair amount of individuals in it who have dodgy views.

Yes I was very close to and am now a member of the Socialist Party. However I am also not interested in denying mistakes that have happened in the past, by fabricating the truth.

 

[Jografer]

What really pisses me off is how many of them, in my experience, seem to have this overbearing belief in their own "rightness" and consider their ideas to be above question or criticism. Almost a holy-infallibility complex - they are Always Right and how dare anyone criticise or object to any aspect of their holy mission to save the planet from it's people.

are you talking about the greens, swp or respect.... as this description seems to fit all 3...

 

[Sacha Ismail]

I'll check if I've got it wrong about the line Militant used to take - though of course I accept that it changed long ago.

Btw, you say the SP's women's section is very active, but I've never heard of it doing anything?

 

[In Bloom]

In fact those kind of structures would if anything make it easier for a cadre group to run the show. Take a small town with maybe 100 Green Party members and fifteen members of the Socialist Party or SWP. Given the membership figures that wouldn't be atypical, although I'm being a bit generous to the Greens in membership terms.

Now think of how many Green members would actually show up to each meeting and remember that all fifteen of the cadre group's members would be there on each occasion and would have caucused beforehand. It would be like a hot knife going through butter.

Doesn't that pretty much depend on said Greens being pigshit thick? How else would anybody fail to spot the painfully clumsy maneuvering of trots in time to boot them out without any damage done?

That said, I don't know how easy it'd be to kick somebody out of the Green Party.

 

[Matt S]

In Bloom,

Not very. Alas, in some cases...!

Matt

 

[housey]

I had the benefit of sitting in the public gallery of brighton & hove council once with a bunch of defend council housing activists protesting against stock transfer.

The Green Party councillors present voted for stock transfer. I have never forgiven them - what is the point in being a 'left' in the Greens if you can't stop your councillors implementing New Labour's anti-working-class housing policy?

 

[Matt S]

housey,

I'm certainly not going to defend it - though it is untrue to say that Brighton's Green councillors voted for stock transfer. They voted for an ALMO, which is a different thing, though in many ways (IMO) just as bad.

Whats the point of being a left in the Greens? Well, in my case (among many other reasons), ensuring that the Green Party in Oxford voted for stock retention. Unlike Labour or the other large parties, the Greens have a genuine democratic debate - so it is entirely possible to shift policy if enough people agree with you. And that is what has been going on over the last few years - I'm confident that the Party will continue to shift to the left. Not many left-wing activists in a political party with thousands of members can claim that their party is becoming more radical as time goes on....

Matt

P.S. It also shouldn't be thought that Brighton Greens are happy with Government policy on Decent Homes. They have consistently called for a fourth option in housing. It's just extremely disappointing that they chose to knuckle down to 'economic reality' and vote for the blackmail ALMO option, rather than retaining stock.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Doesn't that pretty much depend on said Greens being pigshit thick? How else would anybody fail to spot the painfully clumsy maneuvering of trots in time to boot them out without any damage done?

It took the Labour Party decades to get rid of Militant, and believe me the Labour Party machine was a great deal more ruthless than any part of the Green Party. As for kicking people out - I said in my first post that such a merger would end up rapidly with mass expulsions or a split, no matter how self-limiting a cadre group tried to be. The non-socialist majority of the Greens would quickly shut down internal democracy and get down to the purges or alternatively they would find themselves out-organised before splitting away themselves.

As for "painfully clumsy manouevering", I'm not even talking about any anti-democratic behaviour. The vastly higher level of organisation and coordination of a sizeable cadre group would allow it to dominate quickly without much of that sort of carry on.

You don't have to like Trotskyism but it is a straightforward fact that the Trotskyist organisations in all their 57 varieties are by far the most organised groupings on the British far left. That's why they punch so far above their numerical weight and why many other leftists spend their time complaining about them rather than out-organising them.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Btw, you say the SP's women's section is very active, but I've never heard of it doing anything?

Most of its activity is internally focused on thing like educational meetings. It is also the source of a good deal of our policy development. It does do some external campaigning too - organising a number of protests at the offices of certain mens magazines for instance.

 

[TeeJay]

I'm sure both TeeJay and Matt S will be along at some point to inform this thread with their respective views...

Why bother?

The far left is irrelevant. Why would either GP members, GP supporters (like myself) or the general voting and non-voting public be the slightest bit interested in what they decide to do?

 

[nino_savatte]

My problem with the Green Party is that it attracts eco-fash, former Tories, folk like Porritt and Parkin and the likes of TeeJay.

 

[housey]

housey,

I'm certainly not going to defend it - though it is untrue to say that Brighton's Green councillors voted for stock transfer. They voted for an ALMO, which is a different thing, though in many ways (IMO) just as bad.

Fair point, Matt (btw we know each other in real life so hi and hope all's well).

But as you say, politically ALMO is as bad. It's good to debate things democratically, but in many ways the outcome's more important. I'm in the SP/CWI, and in my opinion the kind of 'loose, democratic' organisation that the Greens have leads to complete unaccountability of their public representatives.

There are undoubtedly good people in the Greens, but the crucial question is how can they exert influence?

 

[Matt S]

>>Fair point, Matt (btw we know each other in real life so hi and hope all's >>well).

>>I'm in the SP/CWI, and in my opinion the kind of 'loose, democratic' >>organisation that the Greens have leads to complete unaccountability of >>their public representatives.

Hmm - I'm not sure who you are. How intriguing.

As for the decentralist model, there are advantages and disadvantages. I think I fall in between two stools in my outlook, because in the Greens I am definitely a centralist - but, to be frank with you, I abhor the democratic centralist, Leninist model of most leftist groups. I prefer a middle ground which prioritises accountability and openness.

Matt

 

[Nigel]

Objectification Of Sanity

Most of its activity is internally focused on thing like educational meetings. It is also the source of a good deal of our policy development. It does do some external campaigning too - organising a number of protests at the offices of certain mens magazines for instance.

What do these magazines have the pictures(obviousley faked) of Tommy in his alleged romps, or allegedley being spanked in fetish clubs.


What serious good is protesting about 'mens' magazines apart from them being able to use it as an advertisement drive to increase the sales????

 

[ska invita]

People on the left should only join the Green Party if they have a political perspective and strategy that is compatible with the Green Party and its' participatory democracy. People on the Green Left certainly do not want, nor are we encouraging, entryism from people who have not yet moved beyond or left behind "democratic centralism" of either a Trotskyist or Stalinist flavour. For once, the picture painted by Nigel Irritable of likely effects of that sort of entryism is fairly accurate.

For the perspective that Green Left in the Green Party do endorse, see the Green Left launch statement, here.

What is needed is the growth of an independent left current in the Green Party that builds on the historical positions of green socialists in the party - that is participatory democracy, libertarian socialism, and an outward looking policy that seeks alliances and joint work with those outside the party.

This is appealing to me - I can get behind many radical or deep green policies, and I am very sceptical of "democratic centralism" and am very keen on a renewal of democracy (particularly in the workplace), but the fundamental weakness the Greens have is that they have painted themselves into a corner by putting environmetnal concerns above and beyond other issues.

This wouldn't be a problem if other policies were well thought out, at least on paper, but I wasnt 100% convinced by the Greens policy details here:
http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/mfss/index.html

...you get the feeling that certain issues are tacked on for show. Perhaps thats unfair, but thats how it reads.

And Nigel Irritable's point (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5206633&postcount=2) is true: the Greens dont really come across as a party in the interests of the working class. Economic and work related issues are a bit fuzzy in the policy section.

TO be fair I have only skimmed over it with a cup of tea, so I would be happy to be proven wrong.

More generally I do think the everyone should get more involved in political parties rather than endless posting on internet boards and marching up and down - or at least I am coming to that conclusion... and even if a party isn't perfect, by joining and getting involved you help to reshape it.

 

[Matt S]

Hey nik,

Re: the point you raised in the other thread. Not sure what you mean by taking 'essential public services' back into national ownership (everyone has a different opinion on what is essential, I guess) but we certainly have policy to renationalise the railways, tube network and so on, as well as water etc.

>the fundamental weakness the Greens have is that they have painted >themselves into a corner by putting environmetnal concerns above and >beyond other issues.

Well, I simply don't think this is true, which is perhaps where a disagreement might form. It's certainly not true of anyone involved in Green Left - but I don't think its true either of most Green politicians in England and Wales, regardless of 'internal affiliation'.

>...you get the feeling that certain issues are tacked on for show. Perhaps >thats unfair, but thats how it reads.

Not really sure what to say about that, because its your impression. It's never been mine! Greens have been working on issues of social justice, peace and democracy (as well as sustainability of course) for years....I don't think that to suggest that Caroline Lucas (for example) only talks about asylum rights or redistribution 'for show' is very fair...

Best,

Matt

 

[TeeJay]

--edit--

 

[ska invita]

Best,

Matt

No, fair enough - I think much of my opinion is based on perception than hard fact, and I remember when Green Left launched and thought that was a positive step in readressing the balance of Green and Red, if you will...

As I said I have voted Green before in local elections (lucky enough to have that option) - I'm no hater! - It would be nice to see greens talking out on other social issues with the same passion as green issues: I guess it depends on the party member/rep you come across...

 

[Matt S]

>I guess it depends on the party member/rep you come across...>

Very much so in my experience, which I agree is an issue.

Matt

 

[TeeJay]

Just some examples of what various Green Party people get up to:

Jean Lambert MEP: what she has been up to: link
& her website: link

Caroline Lucus MEP: what she has been up to: link
& her website: link

Sian Berry's (Principle Speaker) blog: link

Keith Taylor (Principle Speaker) speeches: link

Jenny Jones (Member of London Assembly): what she has been up to: link
Her London Assembly page: link

Darren Johnson (Member of London Assembly & Lewisham councillor): what he has been up to: link
His London Assembly page: link

These links clearly show that these high profile people are involved in lots of issues besides 'the environment' and 'green issues'. The same is true of many other Green party members and supporters.

***

Just to pick one example:

Jean Lambert:

"Among other committee work, Jean is a member of the Committee on Employment and Social Affairs. For this committee Jean works on issues including social inclusion, workers' rights, immigration and social security. She is a member of the Committee on Petitions and deputy member on Civil Liberties Committee, where Jean is the spokesperson on asylum policy for the Green Group. She is a member of the European Parliament contact group with the Commission and Council on Social Inclusion. She is also Co-President of the Parliamentary Inter-group on Aging, vice-President of the Social Economy Inter-group, and a member of the Anti-racism, Trade Unions, Lesbian and Gay rights, Disability and Initiatives for Peace intergroups.

Jean was Principal Speaker for the Green Party of England and Wales from 1992-93 and 1998-1999, Chair of the Green Party Executive in 1994 and has been an active member of the Green Party since 1977. She is currently the Green Party spokesperson on Employment, Social Affairs and Pensions. Her special interests are Democracy and Human Rights, Sustainable Development, Anti-discrimination and Social Inclusion. She is a Member of Charter 88 Council and an Executive Supporter and signatory for Charter 99, an initiative for global democracy."

...

Do you only deal with environmental issues?

The Green agenda goes far beyond the obvious environmental issues. True sustainability has three pillars: economic stability, environmental protection and social justice. Combined this means Quality of Life. I work on improving employment conditions and for a better balance between work and other aspects of our lives. I campaign against corporate power and for the rights of the individual and of communities. Inner London is the richest region of the EU, yet it has areas of extreme poverty: I want to see poverty and social exclusion tackled both here and elsewhere in the world. My key priority is to fight intolerance, discrimination and inequality wherever they exist. Sustainability cannot be built on injustice."

source: link

(edited to make the links tidier)

 

[Das Uberdog]

My major issues with the Green Party come for me, directly with their lack of policy towards building an Electoral Alternative founded upon the Trade Union movement (which I believe is the only essential factor I have for supporting a parliamentary political organisation) and also, through their disparaging and often aggressive movements towards the rest of the left.

In Preston, we stood 5 Respect candidates in the last Council Election. We came close second in 4, and 3rd in the last - missing out on Town Centre by just 7 votes.

We should have won Town Centre and perhaps even Riversway, but what stopped us mainly were the Greens, who - for some reason totally unbeknownst to us, had decided to stand paper candidates against us in wards they had never stood in before, in urban working class wards where they had little support, and refused to listen to our pleas for an alliance. They got 74 votes in Town Centre and if we couldn't have gained 7 votes up on Labour from those then to be honest, I'd be shocked.

Respect Campaign for the Greens in Lancaster, we've offered alliances with them in the past but are always rebuffed. With 3 Respect councillors in Preston, we've initiated and pushed through more environmental legislation than the Greens have done in Lancaster with 12 councillors, making Preston the 'Greenest City' in Lancashire - but seemingly, they'd still rather see New Labour take our council seats than have a left-wing, environmentalist alternative.

 

[poster342002]

My major issues with the Green Party come for me, directly with their lack of policy towards building an Electoral Alternative founded upon the Trade Union movement

Problem is, that movement is largely dead in the water. What remains of it largely consists of old activists engaged on 100% TU facility time at their workplace. The unions themselves have very little active membership and seem to be empty shells. Paradoxically, the left within some unions have taken a number of significant positons on the back of this phenomenon - but don't seem to realise they are the captain of a ship with no crew.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Even still, my founding pre-requisite for support of any parliamentary organisation is foundations within the Trade Unions - otherwise I simply do not feel they can be held accountable to anything beyond the election.

Trade Unionism is in a bit of a crisis, but that's not a reason to give up on it, it's a reason to fight for it.

 

[ska invita]

The unions themselves have very little active membership and seem to be empty shells.

The role of Trade Unions will never completely disappear, and things may well change a lot in our lifetime as globalisation restructures our working lives.

even now they are far from irrelevant - if not crucial.

-On the point of the Green (narrow) agenda - if you look at their sites front page:
http://www.greenparty.org.uk/newsitem/r=incfrontpage=true
all but one of the stories are about dirctly green issues - I find this bias a little uncomfortable, politically speaking, although I think it is possible and perhaps wise, to approach all issues from an ecological perspective first. But to really win me over more real effort does have to be made to address those other (particularly working class) issues.

 

[Matt S]

>>With 3 Respect councillors in Preston, we've initiated and pushed through more environmental legislation than the Greens have done in Lancaster with 12 councillors, making Preston the 'Greenest City' in Lancashire>>

I'd be very interested in seeing proof of this claim....

Matt

P.S. To be honest, RESPECT's understanding of environmental issues was summed up for me by the prize in their Conference raffle this year - two Easyjet flights to Europe....

 

[Das Uberdog]

http://www.lancastergreens.nshc.co.uk/index.htm

This is Lancaster Greens website. I got it wrong, they have 7 councillors, the Independants have 12. Unfortunately, I can't find any reporting of any environmental legislation pushed through the council from them...

http://www.prestonrespect.org/

Just look on Council - to my memory there's at least 2 pieces of environmental legislation which Respect initiated - and those don't include the one's we've supported through council (usually against the Tories).

Not that it's been possible to push anything radical through council with 3 councillors in Preston, just that the Greens in Lancaster have done more pitifully than ourselves.