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The Green Party and the left

I'm not sure Tatchell is a very good model for the Left. He was a Labour Party Candidate 1983 and tried again in 1990. He did not leave the Party until 2000 and then only Livingston's expulsion - probably in the hope of a post in the London Assembly. It is not even clear he was ever in a Left group other than perhaps London Labour Briefing in the early 1980s. Other than Outrage! he is completely isolated politically - he may have some connections with AWL but they are equally isolated.

I was a member of Outrage! myself but I have to admit he is ratherdriven by his ego and self of his own importance which he has never really managed to prove in practice. He is much more like a lost ship which has eventually found refuge in the Green Party's harbour.
 
Fuck the Greens, inneffectual, woolly shite with no real substance.

And fuck Tatchell and all the other 'community leaders' that like the attach themselves to the Greens too, worthless, parasitic cunts.
 
scawenb said:
I take it you're not keen then?
No, not as such :p

I just think that the Greens are as much a part of the 80s and 90s style of leftism as the SWP and the Labour left. They've nothing really interesting to say, no great tactical innovations, no new insights or even any particularly strong old insights, what's the fucking point?

And as for Tatchell, don't even get me started on that vile little individual. What was it he was saying in the Guardian yesterday? Something about how Sacha Baron Cohen is dangerous even though he's satirical because some people might think he's genuine and use it to reinforce their own (and I quote directly here) "lumpen mindset". 'Nuff said, I think.
 
In Bloom said:
Fuck the Greens, inneffectual, woolly shite with no real substance.

And fuck Tatchell and all the other 'community leaders' that like the attach themselves to the Greens too, worthless, parasitic cunts.

Back on form I see. :D You've obviously got over that little hippy blip last week when you were on about Skillshares
 
4thwrite said:
Back on form I see. :D You've obviously got over that little hippy blip last week when you were on about Skillshares
Meh, anybody who sees mutual aid as the sole preserve of hippies isn't worth arguing with :p
 
In Bloom said:
Meh, anybody who sees mutual aid as the sole preserve of hippies isn't worth arguing with :p
I know - but it was too good an opportunity to miss ;)
 
On Tatchell, i was originally pretty impressed with some of those OUtrage 'stunts'. There was a time when that kind of direct action was a good tactic - and he was particularly brave when it came to Mugabe. The fact that he carried on doing it though is much more problematic - its the hero model and pretty elitist. Not something you can build a mass movement around. As has been said also, the year 2000 was a bit late to become disillusioned with Blair.
 
kyser_soze said:
I was fine with Outrage until the 'Outing' thing started - I thought that was a bit out of order really.
Ditto - it was just about okay if some Mp or bishop had been saying/doing hypocritical things. However, persecuting someone for not choosing to publicise their sexuality was bizarre.
 
I know its off topic but that is just not true - Outrage was opposed to outing in general but saw it as a form of queer self-defence following the Age of Censent vote and the vote at Synod to out those who had voted against equality for all lesbian and gay people. I don't think that is at all out of order.
 
scawenb said:
I know its off topic but that is just not true - Outrage was opposed to outing in general but saw it as a form of queer self-defence following the Age of Censent vote and the vote at Synod to out those who had voted against equality for all lesbian and gay people. I don't think that is at all out of order.

I agree, I'm no fan of the Greens but Tatchell is a sound bloke, no ones sees him as a community leader either, loads of gays find him embarrassing. He's honest though and puts his physical safety and freedom on the line for his beliefs.
 
From you maybe and the other tiny sects, but a lot more non aligned (the majority of the left in fact) have a lot of respect for Tatchell

Other than Outrage! he is completely isolated politically - he may have some connections with AWL but they are equally isolated.
 
Peter Tatchell is not in any way a member of AWL! As far as I know, the only things he's a member of are the Green Party and Green Left. His connections with us are limited to working with us on campaigns sometimes...

Those taking part in this debate might be interested in:

--

Capitalism, the environmental crisis and the working class

A forum for discussion

What should the left say about the Stern report? Can we save the environment under capitalism? Is the workers' movement part of the problem or part of the solution? What kind of society can establish a sustainable relationship between human beings and the environment?

Speakers: Peter Tatchell and Derek Wall from the Green Party's "Green Left" group, and Clive Bradley from Workers' Liberty.

7.30pm, Thursday 9 November
University of London Union, Malet Street
(Russell Square, Goodge Street or Euston Tube)
 
treelover said:
From you maybe and the other tiny sects, but a lot more non aligned (the majority of the left in fact) have a lot of respect for Tatchell
If you read my post you see I'd actually said I was a member of Outrage so he was NOT isolated from me.

However, for himself he is isolated from any political support base around him who he can work with to break from the problem of individual action. It doesn't matter how many of us respect him - it is just not possible for one person to be a political movement. That is his weakness.
 
Sacha Ismail said:
Peter Tatchell is not in any way a member of AWL! As far as I know, the only things he's a member of are the Green Party and Green Left. His connections with us are limited to working with us on campaigns sometimes...
I had only said he had a connection with the AWL I know he is not a member and never has been in its present form. He may have been a member of a Trotskyist group before 1983 but I don't think he ever admits it.
 
SuburbanCasual said:
I agree, I'm no fan of the Greens but Tatchell is a sound bloke, no ones sees him as a community leader either, loads of gays find him embarrassing. He's honest though and puts his physical safety and freedom on the line for his beliefs.

Agree with that and unlike a lot of other well known Left wingers. Peter Tatchell lives on a low income at the Elephant and Castle.Something i cant quite imagine Tony Benn or John Pilger etc doing...
 
Nigel Irritable said:
<snip> Leaving that aside, there are practical points to consider. If one of the sizeable (relatively speaking) organistions of the socialist left, the SWP or the Socialist Party or even the Communist Party of Britain, were to join the Greens en masse, it would result in total uproar. The right wing, centrist, soft-left or just non-socialist elements of the Green Party (a significant majority taken together) would go absolutely berserk, convinced that a takeover was afoot. Those fears wouldn't be entirely without justification as in my view even a smaller leftist cadre group would be enormously more disciplined and organised than any of the other currents in the GP. There would be a purge of the leftists or simply a split in very short order.

The above would be true even if the leftists concerned were completely convinced of environmentalist ideas (as in various ways most are) and even if they honestly and seriously tried to limit themselves so as to lessen fears of a takeover. The Green Party, as opposed to the wider green movement, just don't have that many activists on the ground, they aren't very experienced at organised factionalism and they have loose and fairly inefficient structures. Even a cadre group on its best self-limiting behaviour would make organisational mincemeat of them.
I was thinking about what you said above.

Could a cadre group as you describe have the same sort of influence within a party structured in the way that the Greens are?

Wouldn't all that democracy stuff along with the 'loose and inefficient structures' you mention, get in the way of the usual committee based approaches for taking stuff over?

I'm sure you know what you're talking about here, but on the basis of my limited exposure to the SWP in the original ANL and in what I saw of them in the student politics of the late 70's and early 80's, and what I know about how the Greens are organised, I just can't visualise the mechanics.
 
scawenb said:
I had only said he had a connection with the AWL I know he is not a member and never has been in its present form. He may have been a member of a Trotskyist group before 1983 but I don't think he ever admits it.

As far as I know he was only associated with London Labour Briefing, in the days when even Margaret Hodge wrote for it. While there were a hard core of trots involved in LLB (the so-called Chartist Minority Tendency) it was a much broader publication and organisation.

He was born in Australia of course. He moved to London in the 1970s and before he joined the Labour Party in the late 1970s was mainly active in the Gay Liberation Movement where the only trotskyist group of note he would have encountered was the IMG - the other significant trotskyist groups were not active within it (maybe Workers Action/I-CL too, can't remember) - but SWP/IS, SLL/WRP, RSL/Militant all regarded it as petit bourgeois.

He was a student in the late 1970s and a member of the NUS gay rights committee, but I can't remember him being in the IMG-initiated Socialist Students Alliance, though that did attract similar radical activists like him such as the late Bob Crossman (later the first out gay mayor of Islington) and Piers Corbyn (brother of Jeremy and trotskyist squatter turned telescope wielding weather forecaster).
 
chooch said:
It drives me insane and is one of the many reasons I joined.
Yep. It's something I find admirable too. I admire the IWCA too for somewhat related reasons.

I tend to buy many of e.g. Bookchin's arguments about direct democracy and local-scale stuff vs statecraft etc. E.g.
Perhaps the greatest single failing of movements for social reconstruction--I refer particularly to the Left, to radical ecology groups, and to organizations that profess to speak for the oppressed--is their lack of a politics that will carry people beyond the limits established by the status quo.

Politics today means duels between top-down bureaucratic parties for electoral office, that offer vacuous programs for "social justice" to attract a nondescript "electorate." Once in office, their programs usually turn into a bouquet of "compromises." In this respect, many Green parties in Europe have been only marginally different from conventional parliamentary parties. Nor have socialist parties, with all their various labels, exhibited any basic differences from their capitalist counterparts. To be sure, the indifference of the Euro-American public--its "apoliticism"--is understandably depressing. Given their low expectations, when people do vote, they normally turn to established parties if only because, as centers of power, they can produce results of sorts in practical matters. If one bothers to vote, most people reason, why waste a vote on a new marginal organization that has all the characteristics of the major ones and that will eventually become corrupted if it succeeds? Witness the German Greens, whose internal and public life increasingly approximates that of other parties in the new Reich.

That this "political process" has lingered on with almost no basic alteration for decades now is due in great part to the inertia of the process itself. Time wears expectations thin, and hopes are often reduced to habits as one disappointment is followed by another. Talk of a "new politics," of upsetting tradition, which is as old as politics itself, is becoming unconvincing. For decades, at least, the changes that have occurred in radical politics are largely changes in rhetoric rather than structure. The German Greens are only the most recent of a succession of "nonparty parties" (to use their original way of describing their organization) that have turned from an attempt to practice grassroots politics--ironically, in the Bundestag, of all places!--into a typical parliamentary party. The Social Democratic Party in Germany, the Labor Party in Britain, the New Democratic Party in Canada, the Socialist Party in France, and others, despite their original emancipatory visions, barely qualify today as even liberal parties in which a Franklin D. Roosevelt or a Harry Truman would have found a comfortable home. Whatever social ideals these parties may have had generations ago has been eclipsed by the pragmatics of gaining, holding, and extending their power in their respective parliamentary and ministerial bodies.

It is precisely such parliamentary and ministerial objectives that we call "politics" today. To the modern political imagination, "politics" is precisely a body of techniques for holding power in representative bodies--notably the legislative and executive arenas--not a moral calling based on rationality, community, and freedom.
source
 
Yep, we were involved in gay rights stuff - women's liberation stuff too - when the rest of the British "Trotskyist" left except the IMG dismissed it. Worth noting the difference between the position of eg IS/SWP, which said that self-organisation was divisive, and Militant, who were actively hostile to issues of women's liberation being raised and until the mid-1980s (don't know the date) regarded homosexuality as a bourgeois disorder that would disappear with the coming of socialism.

Sacha Ismail
Workers' Liberty (very previously I-CL/Workers' Action!)
 
I reckon the green party are the best chance we've got for changing anything through politics. Slim chance, though. They probably need a lot more money.
 
Sacha Ismail said:
Yep, we were involved in gay rights stuff - women's liberation stuff too - when the rest of the British "Trotskyist" left except the IMG dismissed it. Worth noting the difference between the position of eg IS/SWP, which said that self-organisation was divisive, and Militant, who were actively hostile to issues of women's liberation being raised and until the mid-1980s (don't know the date) regarded homosexuality as a bourgeois disorder that would disappear with the coming of socialism.

Sacha Ismail
Workers' Liberty (very previously I-CL/Workers' Action!)


Yep I thought so - apologies that my memory wasn't that good; we didn't have any I-CL/Workers Action people where I lived but I was pretty sure they supported the gay liberation movement, unlike the IS/SWP, RSL/Militant, and SLL/WRP who were all unspeakably attrocious.
 
Sacha Ismail said:
Militant... ...regarded homosexuality as a bourgeois disorder that would disappear with the coming of socialism.

This is not accurate. Militant studiously ignored the issue of gay liberation until its gay members organised to change that in the 1980s, which is quite bad enough. It didn't have a position that it was a "bourgeois disorder", if only because it didn't have a formal position at all. Nowadays the Socialist Party takes these issues very seriously and in fact its LGBT group and women's caucus are two of the most active segments of the organisation.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I was thinking about what you said above.

Could a cadre group as you describe have the same sort of influence within a party structured in the way that the Greens are?

Wouldn't all that democracy stuff along with the 'loose and inefficient structures' you mention, get in the way of the usual committee based approaches for taking stuff over?

In fact those kind of structures would if anything make it easier for a cadre group to run the show. Take a small town with maybe 100 Green Party members and fifteen members of the Socialist Party or SWP. Given the membership figures that wouldn't be atypical, although I'm being a bit generous to the Greens in membership terms.

Now think of how many Green members would actually show up to each meeting and remember that all fifteen of the cadre group's members would be there on each occasion and would have caucused beforehand. It would be like a hot knife going through butter.
 
Militant: True Working Class Virtues!!!????

Sacha Ismail said:
Yep, we were involved in gay rights stuff - women's liberation stuff too - when the rest of the British "Trotskyist" left except the IMG dismissed it. Worth noting the difference between the position of eg IS/SWP, which said that self-organisation was divisive, and Militant, who were actively hostile to issues of women's liberation being raised and until the mid-1980s (don't know the date) regarded homosexuality as a bourgeois disorder that would disappear with the coming of socialism.

Sacha Ismail
Workers' Liberty (very previously I-CL/Workers' Action!)

Whats wrong with that:eek: :D
Better than having a bunch of dungereed middle class lesbians or limp wristed homosexuals destroying the horny handed sons of toils working class image.

Incidentely, I know that I have brought this up before but do you know anything about any of these groups gay/lesbian, womens, black/coloured? factions: womens voice, spark, GLF's involvment with PIE; how the people involved in this area of protest dealt with this in orgs that may have been pretty hostile to them: MILITANT/WRP???

Heard some story about a transexual person who was denied membership to the Millies in Liverpool!!!?
 
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