Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The Green Party and the left

Charlie Drake

New Member
Been thinking lately about the different left groups in the UK and the several initiatives for left unity we have at the moment. There are many on the left that recognise the need to move to beyond the sects and onto some form of unity, but these seem to die in infancy.
My question is this: Why don't 'leftists' join the Green Party en masse? Now I realise that most leftists will have strong critisisms of the GP and it is not a socialist/Marxist party. However it IS left of centre, it has a national profile and a new organised Green Left faction which includes those in leadership positions.
Can the GP be set on a more leftist course?

I stress I am not a GP member, nor a member of another group. I come from a leftist tradition, but have given up on most of it. This is a genuine post and I'm not wanting to stir, honest! What do Greens and lefties on here think?
 
The first objection from the left is that joining the Greens would be an abandonment of the priniciple of independent working class organisation. That about ends the discussion for me, in current circumstances at least (ie there are more extreme situations where joining wouldn't be ruled out on principle).

Leaving that aside, there are practical points to consider. If one of the sizeable (relatively speaking) organistions of the socialist left, the SWP or the Socialist Party or even the Communist Party of Britain, were to join the Greens en masse, it would result in total uproar. The right wing, centrist, soft-left or just non-socialist elements of the Green Party (a significant majority taken together) would go absolutely berserk, convinced that a takeover was afoot. Those fears wouldn't be entirely without justification as in my view even a smaller leftist cadre group would be enormously more disciplined and organised than any of the other currents in the GP. There would be a purge of the leftists or simply a split in very short order.

The above would be true even if the leftists concerned were completely convinced of environmentalist ideas (as in various ways most are) and even if they honestly and seriously tried to limit themselves so as to lessen fears of a takeover. The Green Party, as opposed to the wider green movement, just don't have that many activists on the ground, they aren't very experienced at organised factionalism and they have loose and fairly inefficient structures. Even a cadre group on its best self-limiting behaviour would make organisational mincemeat of them.
 
no sects please we're brutish

kind of agree with the thrust of what nigel irritable has said. Any real coming together would have to spring from either electoral agreements or at the very least non-aggression pacts; and the greens don't seem to be up for this <they have been approached by RESPECT before for example>
 
the challenge from the parties of the left is too fragmented .but their must be a lot of disgruntled labour people looking for a home and the green party is making the noises that attract people like my myself.they need a breakthrough such as a big name defection from labour or the backing of a big union but that is just wishful thinking.shit it really is the depressing the state of left leaning politics in this country at the moment:confused:
 
The Geeen party is not part of the left and (what remains of the) the actual left should not touch this outfit with a bargepole. A lot of green party stuff makes me very uncomfortable, tbh.
 
I'm sure both TeeJay and Matt S will be along at some point to inform this thread with their respective views...
 
What really pisses me off is how many of them, in my experience, seem to have this overbearing belief in their own "rightness" and consider their ideas to be above question or criticism. Almost a holy-infallibility complex - they are Always Right and how dare anyone criticise or object to any aspect of their holy mission to save the planet from it's people. :rolleyes:
 
It a bit like the question of the left joining the SNP or PC which are, on balance, to the left of Labour but they are not on the Left.

There is also the tactical issue that its not clear how being in the Green Party would actually help.
 
People on the left should only join the Green Party if they have a political perspective and strategy that is compatible with the Green Party and its' participatory democracy. People on the Green Left certainly do not want, nor are we encouraging, entryism from people who have not yet moved beyond or left behind "democratic centralism" of either a Trotskyist or Stalinist flavour. For once, the picture painted by Nigel Irritable of likely effects of that sort of entryism is fairly accurate.

For the perspective that Green Left in the Green Party do endorse, see the Green Left launch statement, here.

What is needed is the growth of an independent left current in the Green Party that builds on the historical positions of green socialists in the party - that is participatory democracy, libertarian socialism, and an outward looking policy that seeks alliances and joint work with those outside the party.
As the statement says, significant leftward change in the current situation in England and Wales is unlikely to come through one purist faction or Party - a broad alliance is needed which recognises the power of people organised in their workplaces and communities, and which does not abandon any of the main fields of political battle - electoral, industrial, community-level or activist. The perspective must also be internationalist as well as localist. For existing greens, community and industrial fields must become as important as electoral and activist.

I believe that the IWCA have done some interesting work, as have the Greens and Respect - the IWW and Rank-and-filist industrial perspectives also have merit - the important thing is to recognise both the flaws in all these strategies, and the positive aspects and successes. i.e , none of the current official strategies of these parties is universally applicable across England and Wales or all the sections of the working class/oppressed/non-capitalist population, but this has been a strength as well as a weakness. What is lacking is co-ordination and an over-arching strategic vision.

So the tasks for left greens are two-fold, build a credible left-green alternative, drawing in some of the large numbers of people who wish to go beyond sterile and limited versions of leftism, and operate on a larger stage to support a broad and multi-tracking movement for socialism and democracy that can really begin to challenge the prevailing neo-liberal consensus. I believe there is a considerable constituency outside the existing left sects for whom these projects will seem the best route forward.
 
Poster, haven't you got some of those reactionary work colleagues you are always telling us about in "no-one can be arsed to do anything" threads to be irritating, rather than contributing nothing of any particular value to Urban? Or is that your allotted role?:rolleyes:
 
scawenb said:
I thought it was pleasantly amusing and a good metaphorical point.

What? So implying that we are Nazi brownshirts is amusing is it? Remind me to adjust my sense of humour when around certain posters, then. In some quarters outside bulletin boards such accusations would get a rather different response, but I will join in laughing - at the absurdity of the comment.
 
I don't think anyone implied colours of shirts which aren't made by mixing paints. Though some may be uneasy at the fascistic nature of a back to nature environmentalism or the move to technocratic corporatism to save the planet.
 
scawenb said:
I don't think anyone implied colours of shirts which aren't made by mixing paints. Though some may be uneasy at the fascistic nature of a back to nature environmentalism or the move to technocratic corporatism to save the planet.
And chief amongst those concerned at those approaches would be those on the green left, whose organisations were specifically set up to counter their influence and promote a democratic, socialist and humanist alternative.
 
scawenb said:
I don't think anyone implied colours of shirts which aren't made by mixing paints. Though some may be uneasy at the fascistic nature of a back to nature environmentalism or the move to technocratic corporatism to save the planet.
Some may be uneasy about stalinism, cheka and gulags.

How do you feel about it when someone suggests that 'the left' is equivalent to those things?
 
But it is in the nature of such a broad single issue Party that it is difficult to know which side will win out. As I mentioned the same strain applies in the history of Parties like the SNP.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Some may be uneasy about stalinism, cheka and gulags.

How do you feel about it when someone suggests that 'the left' is equivalent to those things?
As was explained no-one actually said (or even implied) the Greens were fascists. I refered to two specific elements which share much with fascism or a sort of feudal socialism.
 
Actually they are. Bigfish does it all the time for example.

You seem to have backed off from it, in which case I have no quarrel with you over this matter.
 
As an aside, and while I don't think that the GP are a bunch of eco-facists aching to switch the power off, I thought it was telling that a party that claims that openess and honesty in government had to have a vote at it's party conference as to whether or not the press (in the form of Newsnight) would be allowed in to film the main conference, as well as one dude who absolutely matched the green stereotype (wild hair and beard) who kept getting up to question everything on points of order etc.

The two extreme ends I guess - those who didn't want the press in (it was a proposal from the floor to NOT admit the press) through to a procedural pedant who claimed that his voice wasn't being heard, despite his taking at least 30 minutes in total out of the conference agenda...
 
They have to have a vote about everything. That's why they drive the cadre-based left parties nuts, 'cos even if they wanted to they can't make any decisions about e.g. alliance of convenience proposals, without having a bunch of tedious democracy about it.

It'd drive me insane, which is one of the many reasons I haven't joined.

Not that I disapprove you understand. I think it's admirable, but I'm the impatient type.
 
:D @ BG

If I can remember and be arsed I'll post up a paragraph from Banks' book 'Look To Windward' about democracy in The Culture, specifically a section about local planning which gives an idea of how democracy does work but doesn't if you need to do something quickly...
 
What I find is that it's usually easier to gain consensus informally if you are doing stuff in fairly small groups and then you can keep the full-on direct democracy for when that doesn't work. Handle it as an exception if you get my drift?

The trouble is, once you get past small groups doing say, actual sustainability projects, and start trying to aim at parliamentary elections and stuff, then if you want to keep democracy as direct as possible, you accept an overhead.

PS I think I remember that bit. I've certainly read the book.
 
kyser_soze said:
:D @ BG

If I can remember and be arsed I'll post up a paragraph from Banks' book 'Look To Windward' about democracy in The Culture, specifically a section about local planning which gives an idea of how democracy does work but doesn't if you need to do something quickly...
This one?
Kabe looked round the haze horizon. He could see hundreds of pylons from here. 'He built all this himself?'

‘In a manner of speaking,' the avatar said, still staring up at the ceiling, which was painted with scenes of ancient rustic life. 'He asked for manufacturing capacity and design time and he found a sentient airship which also thought it would be a hoot to dot pylons all over the Breaks. He designed the pylons and the cars, had them manufactured and then he and the airship and a few other people he'd talked into supporting the project started putting the pylons up and stringing the cables in between.'

'Didn't anyone object?'

'He kept it quiet for a surprisingly long time, but yes, people did object.'

'There are always critics,' Ziller muttered. He was studying a huge paper chart through a magnifying glass.

'But they let him go ahead?'

'Grief, no,' the avatar said. 'They started taking the pylons down. Some people like their wilderness just as it is.'

'But obviously Mr Latry prevailed,' Kabe said, looking round again. They were approaching the mast on the low hill. The ground was rising towards the car's lower sails and their shadow was growing closer all the time.

'He just kept building the pylons and the airship and his pals kept planting them. And the Preservationeers - ' the avatar turned and glanced at Kabe, 'they had a name by this time; always a bad sign - kept taking them down. More and more people joined in on both sides until the place was swarming with people putting up pylons and hanging cable off them, rapidly followed by people tearing everything down and carting it away again.'

'Didn't they vote on it?' Kabe knew this was how disputes tended to be settled in the Culture.

The avatar rolled its eyes. 'Oh, they voted.'

'And Mr Latry won.'

'No, he lost.'

'So, how come-?'

'Actually they had lots of votes. It was one of those rolling campaigns where they had to vote on who would be allowed to vote; just people who'd been to the Breaks, people who lived on Canthropa, everybody on Masaq', or what?'

'And Mr Latry lost.'

'He lost the first vote, with those eligible to vote restricted to those who'd been to the Breaks before - would you believe there was one proposal to weight everybody's votes according to how many times they'd been here, and another to give them a vote for each day they'd been here?' The avatar shook its head. 'Believe me; democracy in action can be an unpretty sight. So he lost that one and in theory my predecessor was then mandated to stop the manufacturing, but then the people who hadn't been allowed to vote were complaining and so there was another ballot and this time it was the whole Plate population, plus people who'd been to the Breaks.'

'And he won that one.'

'No, he lost that one, too. The Preservationeers had some very good PR. Better than the Pylonists.'

'They had a name too by this time?' Kabe asked.

'Of course.'

'This isn't going to be one of those idiotic local disputes that end up being put to a vote of the whole Culture, is it?' Ziller said, still poring over his chart. He looked up briefly at the avatar. 'I mean, that doesn't really happen, does it?' he asked.

'It really happens,' the avatar said. Its voice sounded particularly hollow. 'More often than you'd think. But no, in this case the quarrel never went out of Masaq's jurisdiction.' The avatar frowned, as though finding something objectionable in the painted scene overhead. 'Oh, Ziller, by the way; mind that pylon.'
 
Back
Top Bottom