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The Great European Rail Test

paolo

Well-Known Member
Firstly, so we all know, I utterly hate air travel. With a passion. The last time I did it, it involved one boot-off a flight (you simply won't believe what for, nor did the medical staff I finally found, 30 mins from the airport, who thought I was clearly a loony), followed by a ticket re-purchase, and two hours of non stop queing, followed by a delay and... oh god... bored yet? I was. I actually like aeroplanes as 'things'. I've got a sodding pilot's license.

So, with the new and very very lovely St Pancras, how far can you blast by rail, how long does it take, and just how good is it really?

Feeling a bit i ndulgent, I put it to the test. London to Berlin.

This was relatively last minute. Less than a week to go. Flights were certainly cheaper. At relatively grim hours of the day, the pair of us could fly for £250 or so. Add to that though the airport transit. And some hotel stays that we could effectively "skip" by doing the sleeper.

And, jeez, what is more romantic - taking your partner by cheap-jet from Luton, or going to Brussels, getting some dinner, then catching the night train to Berlin... in your own compartment, loo, shower.

The firslt slight downside... about a week of fishing through timetables, on and off. The good news: There will be an integrated European scheduling and booking system. But not yet. In some ways this adds to the adventure, but it's hardly doing much to encourage passengers.

And the cost. Given the late booking, and the full luxury (i.e. first class sleeper)... eek. I'll mumble now.... five... hundred... cough.... quid.

Departing from St Pancras is a joy. A total joy. You could pick the best first class airport lounge in any UK airport, and it barely look as good as the bogs at St Pancras. Even my (fussy, French ;) ) GF already *knew* where we were going to have coffee. And it was fab. Stage one, Rail hands down.

We arrive in Brussels-Midi 30 mins late. I do the Eurostar every month. This has never happened. I have total faith in European high speed rail. To prove a point against, we get stuck behind a broken down Thalys... a high speed train. Gah.

Welcome to Midi. The biggest dump of a station I've ever seen. I'd never noticed before, but my GFs previous intonations about the place start getting to me. It's a warren of crap. And so is the area. There's nowhere to eat. We get a few beers in the nearby Ibis, then head back.

The train is late. Very late. The CityNightLine (tm!) comes from Paris. It's an hour overdue, and Midi is turning into something from Blade Runner. I get a few beers (thank god) from a bizarre 24 hour vending machine. It's a good job too. When we board the train, the bar has just shut.

BUT. Oh.... these are compartments like you will never see in the UK. Aside from a bit more room, there's the bathroom. It's mint. Gleaming. A loo, a sink, a shower, mirror, a stack of towels neatly folded. It's like a luxury hotel but in miniature.

But way better than all of that, you can sit there with a beer, with your other half, in the dark, and watch the city turn to countryside, then turn to city again. You are forever playing games of "where are we now?"

The alarm goes. A preagreed time with the guy who is managing the carriage means we are woken with breakfast outside our door. When he realises we are going to take awhile with our showers, he sets out another compartment next door, in "daytime" setup (seats down). We have another room for breakfast. Awesome. We eat breakfast as we watch Berlin come into view. Not as a random overhead view of some shit car parks and industrial estates, but right through the city. And we're doing this in total privacy. It's just us, in our own little world.

We step off the platform. And look up. OH MY. The next train, on the very next platform... Moscow. How cool is that? We could just stay here and jump on ;)

Downstairs is Ostbanhof. It's everything that Midi isn't. Compact, light, safe and welcoming. Only 20 minutes after "landing", we have *walked* to our central Berlin accomodation and have our feet up.

I can't recommend long distance European train travel on price. Chances are it will be more expensive than flying.

But, maybe with a few small hitches, it could be great treat - if you one day, say, fancy treating your partner. Watching the night train pull in to the station, no matter how late it is, sets all the emotions on the go. The only problem, will you actually get to sleep in those comfy beds or just stay up like excited kids? :cool:
 
paolo999 said:
(snip for brevity)

Quality, love Berlin, got the train across to Poznan from there and it was plain sailing. Also, love the old hospital photos in the photography forum! (eta: sorry, general forum - am I going mad, or has it been moved?)

I took the missus to Brussels on Eurostar last year, cost us £280 for both including 3 nights in a 5-star hotel - the Eurostar website do offer good deals. Only problem is the arrangements at both ends, we live in Bath and the cheapest and easiest way was (unfortunately) to drive to Ashford (no UK trains got us to Eurostar in Waterloo or Ashford early enough) and, as you note, Brussels Midi is awful - there's not even a map, and the tourist information was shut when I got there. The train was fantastic though, and it was fully booked so I was even more impressed we got cheap tickets for the journeys.

Please, please, please let them set up a dedicated link line or service to the West Country. It would get rid of what I think is the most significant barrier - I went to Paris last summer with work and those who flew from Bristol got in at least a couple of hours before we did, mostly due to the faff in getting to Waterloo from Bath.
 
The GWR is very flat and suitable for running HS trains on, but it would have to be electrified first, and that's not going to happen any time soon :(
 
Crispy said:
The GWR is very flat and suitable for running HS trains on ...

As is the old Great Central main line, or what's left of it. Turning that into a high-speed line has been mentioned once or twice, but it's probably impossible now. Too much of it has been built over and lost. :(
 
Crispy said:
The GWR is very flat and suitable for running HS trains on, but it would have to be electrified first, and that's not going to happen any time soon :(

Aye, good old Brunel - not sure you'd get a HS train through the Box tunnel though.
 
BoxTunnelWest.jpg

No worries!
 
Roadkill said:
As is the old Great Central main line, or what's left of it. Turning that into a high-speed line has been mentioned once or twice, but it's probably impossible now. Too much of it has been built over and lost. :(
Well, it was built as an inter-continental link, but too much of it has gone now (but at least there's a nice steam hauled preserved bit in Loughborough).
 
Roadkill said:
It was built for the broad gauge, so you probably would...

That would be an awesome sight, but don't HS trains need greater draft clearances than your common-or-garden trains? This is certainly the case for TGV.

eta (Crispy's photo): I drive past the Box tunnel every week, I must admit the entrance has never struck me as being that big before!

Also, I'm not that arsed about high-speed between Bath/Bristol and St Pancras, just some synchronisation between services would be nice. But you could say that about all UK train services, I guess.
 
paolo999 said:
Feeling a bit indulgent, I put it to the test. London to Berlin.
That sounds fantastic! Funnily enough, we're looking to make the exact same trip in a few months as I'm harbouring plans to do a Berlin Offline.

There's no way I'd want to fly either, and your train sleeper adventure has definitely whetted my appetite.
 
editor said:
Well, it was built as an inter-continental link, but to much of it has gone now (but at least there's a nice steam hauled preserved bit in Loughborough).

Much of the trackbed is still there: it's the bits in the cities that have been obliterated. AFAIK they're just demolishing the old viaducts in Leicester now, but the stations and lines in Sheffield and Nottingham have long since been demolished and built over. Having it back is a lovely dream but you're right: it won't happen.

The preserved bit is :cool: though. They've got a 60mph speed limit for special (non-passenger carrying) trains on there, which can be quite a sight. :cool: :cool:
 
mattie said:
I took the missus to Brussels on Eurostar last year, cost us £280 for both including 3 nights in a 5-star hotel - the Eurostar website do offer good deals. Only problem is the arrangements at both ends, we live in Bath and the cheapest and easiest way was (unfortunately) to drive to Ashford (no UK trains got us to Eurostar in Waterloo or Ashford early enough) and, as you note, Brussels Midi is awful - there's not even a map, and the tourist information was shut when I got there. The train was fantastic though, and it was fully booked so I was even more impressed we got cheap tickets for the journeys.

Is it any easier with it now being St Pancras? (I'm guessing maybe not).

It's suuch a great way to travel. The London-Brussels leg of our trip was just under 110 quid for two of us. On the way back we had a whole carriage to ourselves... we got so sleepy and comfy, we were actually disappointed to have to get off at St Pancras :)
 
mattie said:
That would be an awesome sight, but don't HS trains need greater draft clearances than your common-or-garden trains? This is certainly the case for TGV.

I said, it was built for the broad gauge. That was Brunel's 7' gauge, as opposed to the 4' 8.5" used elsewhere. Therefore, the line was built to take wider and higher trains than most of the rest of Britain's railways. Legend has it that it was also aligned so that the sun will shine through it on April 9th, Brunel's birthday, but no-one's ever managed to prove this, mainly because doing so would involve standing in the middle of a major railway line. :D

As an aside, the Great Central was also built to a more generous loading gauge than most lines as part of Sir Edward Watkin's dream of having through trains between Paris and Manchester via a Channel tunnel. All the more reason to be sorry it's gone, IMO.
 
paolo999 said:
Is it any easier with it now being St Pancras? (I'm guessing maybe not).

It's suuch a great way to travel. The London-Brussels leg of our trip was just under 110 quid for two of us. On the way back we had a whole carriage to ourselves... we got so sleepy and comfy, we were actually disappointed to have to get off at St Pancras :)

Yep, it's just a great way to travel, and you can get off slap bang in the middle of the city (not quite the same for Brussels, but Paris Nord and St Pancras are both amply well served by Metro/Tube and buses)

Re. St Pancras, it doesn't really have much impact on us unfortunately - we can either go via Reading into Paddington on the higher-speed service or take a slower train through Salisbury to Waterloo (the route is lovely in places) - what we make up on the Paddington line we lose on getting the tube to Waterloo. Now it's moved, we'd have to get the tube regardless, but it's only a few stops on the circle from Paddington to St Pancras. The problem is neither main-line service has particularly extensive operating hours.
 
I went from Milan to Paris 6 months ago, and it was expensive and dire. The overnight train looks like it is left over from the stone age, and I had to share a small compartment with 3 others, no comfort at all, and it cost 4 times the ryanair flight.

To add insult to injury the train before the overnight one was spanking new and gleaming, only to be replaced with the boneshaker we went in.

I LOVE train travel, but they'll have to do a lot better than that to persuade me to go thru that again. The only advantage was the lack of limit on baggage!
 
Roadkill said:
I said, it was built for the broad gauge. That was Brunel's 7' gauge, as opposed to the 4' 8.5" used elsewhere. Therefore, the line was built to take wider and higher trains than most of the rest of Britain's railways. Legend has it that it was also aligned so that the sun will shine through it on April 9th, Brunel's birthday, but no-one's ever managed to prove this, mainly because doing so would involve standing in the middle of a major railway line. :D

As an aside, the Great Central was also built to a more generous loading gauge than most lines as part of Sir Edward Watkin's dream of having through trains between Paris and Manchester via a Channel tunnel.

I understood, but I'm asking what adaptations would be necessary - although designed for a broader gauge, it's still only designed for slow speed trains. I've no idea whether this is sufficient for high-speed, as it's not clear to me if a broader entrance is the only requirement (or indeed if the entrance is broad enough anyway) - as an example deeper track beds are needed for HS, but these could (I would imagine) be excavated, if other restrictions within the tunnel won't allow high speed running perhaps there could be a local speed limit?
 
mattie said:
I understood, but I'm asking what adaptations would be necessary - although designed for a broader gauge, it's still only designed for slow speed trains. I've no idea whether this is sufficient for high-speed, as it's not clear to me if a broader entrance is the only requirement (or indeed if the entrance is broad enough anyway) - as an example deeper track beds are needed for HS, but these could (I would imagine) be excavated, if other restrictions within the tunnel won't allow high speed running perhaps there could be a local speed limit?

That's not just an issue with Box Tunnel; that covers the whole line. The GW main line is, by British standards, very flat and straight so upgrading it would be easier than, say, the West Coast Main Line. The big problem, though, is junctions, and the fact that British intercity trains share routes with freight and local trains. The TGV and so on run on pretty much entirely separate lines. That's something that can't really be got around just by upgrading existing track.
 
I'd like to do this but would need to plan ahead - £500 to Berlin I can't manage. The idea of the sleeper car etc is lovely :)
 
Gmarthews said:
I went from Milan to Paris 6 months ago, and it was expensive and dire. The overnight train looks like it is left over from the stone age, and I had to share a small compartment with 3 others, no comfort at all, and it cost 4 times the ryanair flight.

To add insult to injury the train before the overnight one was spanking new and gleaming, only to be replaced with the boneshaker we went in.

I LOVE train travel, but they'll have to do a lot better than that to persuade me to go thru that again. The only advantage was the lack of limit on baggage!

Have to admit I wouldn't do overnight in couchettes or recliners or whatever. Well, I could do couchettes, but I snore like a bastard... :(
 
g force said:
I'd like to do this but would need to plan ahead - £500 to Berlin I can't manage. The idea of the sleeper car etc is lovely :)

You should be able to do it much cheaper if you plan ahead. Will never be quite as cheap as flying, but the comfy-cool value is huge. "It" (whatever you might pay) is worth 5x any fancy restaurant meal, if your partner has a similar mindset.

Bizarrely, it's a journey you want to be longer. I think we would have opted for another 8 hours.... 8 hours watching the stars and talking shit (we did a bit of that ;) ), and 8 hours finally in bed.
 
Roadkill said:
That's not just an issue with Box Tunnel; that covers the whole line. The GW main line is, by British standards, very flat and straight so upgrading it would be easier than, say, the West Coast Main Line. The big problem, though, is junctions, and the fact that British intercity trains share routes with freight and local trains. The TGV and so on run on pretty much entirely separate lines. That's something that can't really be got around just by upgrading existing track.

Would tunnels be the biggest stumbling block on a technical level if we tried to go HS? The Box tunnel is about 2 miles long, not trivial to reshape, although the accumulative effort on parts of the line elsewhere would be massive.

I remember some comments made by the director of the Swiss train network when he visited the UK after retirement - he identified the lack of separation between intercity, local and freight as one of the biggest problems to address.

The TGV does share some common track with standard trains but I think it's massively limited in speed on those sections (for scheduling reasons as well as practical I suspect, no point shooting up behind a freight train!) - I'd be more than happy if a Eurostar could travel from Bath to Paris and do the Bath-Londo leg at Intercity speeds.
 
g force said:
I'd like to do this but would need to plan ahead - £500 to Berlin I can't manage. The idea of the sleeper car etc is lovely :)
Someone told me recently that they travelled to Berlin for £120 return on the sleepers, adding £20 for an upgrade to a first class sleeper.
 
According to seat 61, that's doable. £59 eurostar return to brussels, £56 return to berlin in a 6-bunk couchette. That's 'special fare' though, standard is £162, and I have no idea how special that fare is.
 
mattie said:
Would tunnels be the biggest stumbling block on a technical level if we tried to go HS? The Box tunnel is about 2 miles long, not trivial to reshape, although the accumulative effort on parts of the line elsewhere would be massive.

I'm not an engineer, but my guess is that tunnels are a fairly minor concern, especially on the old GWR lines because of their generous loading gauge.

I remember some comments made by the director of the Swiss train network when he visited the UK after retirement - he identified the lack of separation between intercity, local and freight as one of the biggest problems to address.

The TGV does share some common track with standard trains but I think it's massively limited in speed on those sections (for scheduling reasons as well as practical I suspect, no point shooting up behind a freight train!) - I'd be more than happy if a Eurostar could travel from Bath to Paris and do the Bath-Londo leg at Intercity speeds.

The TGV and other high-speed networks in Europe do share limited amounts of track with normal trains, especially around major population centres where building new lines is impracticable, but the high-speed running is done on dedicated track not shared with freight or other passenger traffic, where there are few junctions and where signalling etc are geared to very fast running.

Basically, if we want high-speed trains in Britain we need to build new lines or resurrect some old ones, because the existing network is already one of the most crowded in the world.
 
editor said:
That sounds fantastic! Funnily enough, we're looking to make the exact same trip in a few months as I'm harbouring plans to do a Berlin Offline.

There's no way I'd want to fly either, and your train sleeper adventure has definitely whetted my appetite.

BOOK. EARLY.

You have two basic options:

An earlyish Eurostar, connect at Midi, then once more (Cologne I think).

The daytime route is about 10 hours or so if I remember rightly, but it won't be much longer (end to end) than flying, and will be shitloads nicer (you don't need me to tell you that).

If you want to check proper schedules, use www.bahn.de - oddly, it's rather good at UK schedules too.

The night route means: Any Eurostar to Brussels (you might want to stop for dinner. If so, allow 3 hours gap). Then the 23:43 CityNightLine (CNL) to Berlin.

On the CNL there are recliners, couchettes (random mix, okay if you just want to get your head down and are a good sleeper). And then the compartments. If there are 2 of you, you can book one to yourselves. You'll get a washbasin, big window, brekky. At the end of the corridor is a proper luxury shower (and WC). For a few more euros (50 in our case, return), you get your own loo and toilet.

If it was me, and I could afford it, I'd always do 2nd class compartment overnight, rather than fly. If I had the time, I'd do the same but daytime train route. I don't think I'll always be able to be that virtuous, but it is a *brilliant* way to travel.

You walk off, freshly showered, and with a total grin. Worth the time or money, if you have a little of either to spare.
 
Roadkill said:
Basically, if we want high-speed trains in Britain we need to build new lines or resurrect some old ones, because the existing network is already one of the most crowded in the world.
And given the population density and land prices, it would be very expensive. I doubt it will happen :(
 
Roadkill said:
The TGV and other high-speed networks in Europe do share limited amounts of track with normal trains, especially around major population centres where building new lines is impracticable, but the high-speed running is done on dedicated track not shared with freight or other passenger

I had a hard time explaining to French friends that with Highspeed One finished, it is entirely highspeed track. :) Shame we can't have more of it. :(
 
Crispy said:
And given the population density and land prices, it would be very expensive. I doubt it will happen :(

It would be an easier financial debate if it wasn't for Edinburgh and Glasgow being, err,seperate. If we could link Scotland with one line, and combine bits of the North to boot, it would be more of a no brainer. :(
 
Curses! I've just wasted another hour reading about trains on wikipedia. *shakes fist*
 
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