The future of working class politics?

[The Black Hand]

Tick boxes is it? And those you deem not capable?

It was mostly men who "started the Labour movement" who, alongside the bourgeoisie, implemented controls on the working class, who they thought were debauched and needed discipline.

Sounds condescending and reactionary to me.

Yes, the majority are working class.

Sorry, I do not recognise the historical period you are talking about.
The 19th century belonged to the Tories and Liberals, and this period fits your 'debauched' description the best.

The Labour party didn't get into govt till 1924 (maybe a yr or 2 out) and even then it was never a majority govt, the unions didn't have legal protection till the Taff Vale judgement in 1906, and perhaps had competing social power only in the 1920s. The first majority Labour govt was after WW2 i think.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

The op tells us nothing new.

It wasn't meant to. Just my own thoughts on the subject.

That would suggest a large audience for his ideas and an opportunity to offer a significant amount of people (of all backgrounds) something more than "absolutely nothing", "pious lectures" or, "empty sloganeering" that Hawkeye Pearce argued don't you think?
.

All Galloway offers is empty slogans though. His politics are opportunistic and offer nothing other than simplistic "anti-imperialism" which relates very little (if at all) to class politics. The saddest day in his life was apparently when the soviet union collapsed which should tell you all you need to know about him and his ilk really.

The key to the future lies in working class self help with working class dignity, norms of solidarity that can be recognised in a different area of the country... It is not dual power with a capital D, but it is a competing social power that can exist in the economic conditions of today. Its not 'selling out'; but rather it knows when to be silent, or/and to retreat, when to act ordinarily, when to press, and be loud, and so on.

This I agree with. Right now it seems that class struggle whilst going on every day around is being fought and won by the ruling class. Working class politics should start in my estimation at the community and workplace level because that is where peoples experience is mostly drawn from. That is why banging on about the war ad infinitum is rather pointless as, apalling though it is, it lies outside of most peoples everyday experience. One reason that the anti-vietnam movement was so successful was that the draft touched everyone accross america. With small armies fighting far away wars the effect (other than for those directly involved) becomes minimised to news flashes. Added to this is that the traditional vehicles for class sturggle, the union movement, were comprehensively screwed by the tories twenty or more years ago with a combination of anti-union laws and massive economic change.
The shrinkage of the industrial base and the massive increase in casualisation have created a situation where a whole new generation is going into work with little or no knowledge of class based politics or how to fight back against the boss. That is why I believe that the community has to be the starting place for any struggles. By acting within local communities people are brought together and gain confidence in their abilities by struggling together. Any talk of overthrowing capitalism is completely irrelevant until communities can see how the system impacts upon them and how to effectively combine against it. There are plenty of issues that get people engaged today it seems to me, the anti NHS privatisation protests, anti-welfare reform movements to name but two. I for one am going to get involved in both as i guess a lot of people on here will.

 

[treelover]

Good on ya Hawkeye, maybe see you Monday?

Resources:

http://www.welfare-reform.org.uk/

www.bcodp.org.uk

http://www.dlahelpgroup.com/main/index.php

www.swansheffield.org.uk

Sheffield Welfare Action Network
mail e-mail: [email protected]
home Homepage: http://www.swansheffield.org.uk

keep our nhs public

http://www.keepournhspublic.com/index.php


''There are plenty of issues that get people engaged today it seems to me, the anti NHS privatisation protests, anti-welfare reform movements to name but two. I for one am going to get involved in both as i guess a lot of people on here will.''

 

[audiotech]

Sorry, I do not recognise the historical period you are talking about.
The 19th century belonged to the Tories and Liberals, and this period fits your 'debauched' description the best.

The Labour party didn't get into govt till 1924 (maybe a yr or 2 out) and even then it was never a majority govt, the unions didn't have legal protection till the Taff Vale judgement in 1906, and perhaps had competing social power only in the 1920s. The first majority Labour govt was after WW2 i think.

I wasn't referring to the Labour party as such, but the period when mainly skilled craftsmen came together to form combines. You'll have to excuse me as I'm in a rush and this is off the top of my head.

I did some research into festivals and wakes and if I recall correctly these wakes (midlands and the north) used to go on for days and they were described as drunken and debauched events which the establishment wanted to control. These statements chimed with the emerging factory system and tying the growing urban poor to the time clock. The craftsmen joined forces with the emerging mill and factory owners to discipline the workforce into the this developing factory system.

 

[rhys gethin]

The craftsmen joined forces with the emerging mill and factory owners to discipline the workforce into the this developing factory system.

MC5 - I'd like some evidence for that - it doesn't seem to be true of the skilled men I know about, except insofar as they might 'discipline' - say - their own children so as to stop them falling asleep and into machines. Where does this idea come from?

 

[audiotech]

All Galloway offers is empty slogans though. His politics are opportunistic and offer nothing other than simplistic "anti-imperialism" which relates very little (if at all) to class politics. The saddest day in his life was apparently when the soviet union collapsed which should tell you all you need to know about him and his ilk really.

Opportunism is not a label I'd hang on Galloway, considering how the neo-cons in the us and the political establishment here have put in an enormous amount of effort and downright lies trying to smear him. Many would have buckled a long time ago.

Anti-imperialism is a class issue. Workers in the middle-east and elsewhere are affected greatly by the imposition of market orientated policies. They are also being bombed and shot by these forces. It costs a bloody fortune too and it's our money they're spending, rather than it being spent on health services, welfare and pensions.

He was "saddened" by the collapse of the Soviet Union? Well, I must admit so was I, but I was glad to see the back of Stalinism.

 

[audiotech]

MC5 - I'd like some evidence for that - it doesn't seem to be true of the skilled men I know about, except insofar as they might 'discipline' - say - their own children so as to stop them falling asleep and into machines. Where does this idea come from?

I've got to go try googling wakes and festivals and see what you come up with.

 

[Cobbles]

In this 21st Century who exactly are the working class?

Do they include workers in call centres and if so up to and including what management level is someone a worker and at what point do they become one of th "bosses" or "oppressors"?

 

[rhys gethin]

In this 21st Century who exactly are the working class?

Do they include workers in call centres and if so up to and including what management level is someone a worker and at what point do they become one of th "bosses" or "oppressors"?

Cobbles - People who get a living essentially by selling their labour are working class, but a lot of them kid themselves about their 'status'. People who get their living essentially from land of shares are not. Managers, foremen and the like do the oppression for the latter, as do policemen and so on, but they are mostly still selling their labour. If all workers understood their position, the system wouldbn't last long - which is why such huge resources are devloted to seEing they DON'T.

 

[durruti02]

The op tells us nothing new.

It starts off in typical fashion, then a simple history lesson (btw, the Labour party has not just become a bourgeois party. It's always been a bourgeois party with workers in it). Then finally comes the familiar attack on Galloway and Respect, who ironically, considering the op's main question, are trying to find a way forward for the left.

Apparently, according to figures given on a TV programme produced in Australia, over five million listeners tune in to Galloway's weekend shows every week. Now, if true, that's what you call "massive" durruti2.

That would suggest a large audience for his ideas and an opportunity to offer a significant amount of people (of all backgrounds) something more than "absolutely nothing", "pious lectures" or, "empty sloganeering" that Hawkeye Pearce argued don't you think?
.

i and many of my mates listen to gg on kelvin mackenzies talksport when i get the time .. he is very interesting but we don't support him .. .. i like a lot of what he says about domestic politics but when he gets into the pro muslim shite he losses 99% of his audience .. while he is part of the process his and respects solutions ( a mixture of old leftism and communalism) are not a way forward ...

he, as all politicians, carries on with the top down solutions .. if you do not understand what HP is saying , today, i can not help you

 

[audiotech]

i and many of my mates listen to gg on kelvin mackenzies talksport when i get the time .. he is very interesting but we don't support him .. .. i like a lot of what he says about domestic politics but when he gets into the pro muslim shite he losses 99% of his audience .. while he is part of the process his and respects solutions ( a mixture of old leftism and communalism) are not a way forward ...

he, as all politicians, carries on with the top down solutions .. if you do not understand what HP is saying , today, i can not help you

I don't need yours, or anyones help thanks. I assume you didn't spot the irony in that remark as you wrote it? Top down and all that?

Galloway "pro Muslim"? Galloway talks, as he he has tonight, about building a party for workers, which the Labour party is no longer. He also is one of the most vocal adherents against Muslim extremists - similar to the nutjobs who threatened to kill him during the election.

 

[zion]

You want to put the future of British working class politics in the hands of George Galloway? Looks like the plutocratic capitalist running dogs will be safe for a while yet!

 

[Cobbles]

Cobbles - People who get a living essentially by selling their labour are working class, but a lot of them kid themselves about their 'status'. People who get their living essentially from land of shares are not. Managers, foremen and the like do the oppression for the latter, as do policemen and so on, but they are mostly still selling their labour. If all workers understood their position, the system wouldbn't last long - which is why such huge resources are devloted to seEing they DON'T.

So then the future for working class politics lies with the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, and Labour parties as the vast majority of salaried staff (e.g. by your definition those who sell their labour) vote for them as opposed to weensy fringe parties.

 

[audiotech]

You want to put the future of British working class politics in the hands of George Galloway? Looks like the plutocratic capitalist running dogs will be safe for a while yet!

You'll be pleased at that I take it?

I didn't say that I wanted to put the future of the working class in the hands of george Galloway did I? FWIW, I would not want to see that and I don't believe George Galloway would see his role in that way either.

 

[rhys gethin]

So then the future for working class politics lies with the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, and Labour parties as the vast majority of salaried staff (e.g. by your definition those who sell their labour) vote for them as opposed to weensy fringe parties.

Or why not the churches, the football association or The Sun? Don't be daft! Read what people have written before answering, do:

'If all workers understood their position, the system wouldn't last long - which is why such huge resources are devoted to seeing they DON'T.'

 

[durruti02]

I don't need yours, or anyones help thanks. I assume you didn't spot the irony in that remark as you wrote it? Top down and all that?



Galloway "pro Muslim"? Galloway talks, as he he has tonight, about building a party for workers, which the Labour party is no longer. He also is one of the most vocal adherents against Muslim extremists - similar to the nutjobs who threatened to kill him during the election.

do you live in TH or have mates there???? GG talks with two faces mate .. his party and teh sw talk with 2 faces

whta he doesn't like about the nutters is they oppose HIS project .. if they supportted him he would love them ..

 

[Cobbles]

The concept of "working Class" politics as a separate value base had currency round about the time when the franchise was extended to include males over 21 who were not property owners (mid 19th. Century?) but 150 years later it's pretty redundant as you're liable to find roughly as many manual labouring Sun readers voting Labour as voting Conservative.

Local interest will generally have as big a part to play - Labour lost out in Dunfermile as all parties opposed to them were advocating an extra Forth crossing which was perceived as a boon to the largely Edinburgh bound commuting popuation.

Successful politics is generally flows from tapping into self interest rather than "big ideas"

 

[audiotech]

do you live in TH or have mates there???? GG talks with two faces mate .. his party and teh sw talk with 2 faces

He was elected democratically and HI?

whta he doesn't like about the nutters is they oppose HIS project .. if they supportted him he would love them ..

Spin away to your hearts content durruti02 Oona King should have had you on board. Galloway's majority would have increased I suspect.

 

[nightbreed]

The concept of "working Class" politics as a separate value base had currency round about the time when the franchise was extended to include males over 21 who were not property owners (mid 19th. Century?) but 150 years later it's pretty redundant as you're liable to find roughly as many manual labouring Sun readers voting Labour as voting Conservative.

Local interest will generally have as big a part to play - Labour lost out in Dunfermile as all parties opposed to them were advocating an extra Forth crossing which was perceived as a boon to the largely Edinburgh bound commuting popuation.

Successful politics is generally flows from tapping into self interest rather than "big ideas"

This is very cynical.
Marx talked about the proletariat and not 'the working class'.
When people say working class I get turned off by the argument , but the proletariat will exist as long as there is capitalism.
Now then, what we need is a party of the proletariat!!
We havent got anything like that in this country.

 

[Cobbles]

Marx talked about the proletariat and not 'the working class'.

What's the difference, unless you enjoy debating points such as "how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin", what's the point. If the proletariat is simply that mass of people who don't own the means of production, then it includes the manager of call centre X etc. in the same way as the definition of working class and is equally obsolete in political terms.

 

[The Black Hand]

What's the difference, unless you enjoy debating points such as "how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin", what's the point. If the proletariat is simply that mass of people who don't own the means of production, then it includes the manager of call centre X etc. in the same way as the definition of working class and is equally obsolete in political terms.

I think Marx used the term proletariat to designate a new class of people who worked in factories, which were new in the sense that they expanded dramatically in terms of numbers and as a general experience of labourers.

 

[Thomsy]

There is no future for working-class politics. Not for the rest of our lifetimes.

Ethnic and confessional loyalties are now so deeply entrenched in Britain (in England, at least) that the working-class has already ceased to exist as an independent political entity.

The three traditional parties realize this. They have more-or-less abandoned electoral appeals based on class. They are each now posing (to varying degrees) as rainbow alliances – claiming to represent a spectrum of ethnic and sectarian constituencies and appealing to those constituencies on more explicitly ethnic and sectarian grounds. Hence all the gesture politics of ethnic slates and quotas.

This ‘rainbow’ moment is a temporary and unstable stage in the unfolding of the logic of multi-culturalism. It can't persist for long because it leaves so little room for the three parties to present distinctive profiles. They are becoming indistinguishable.

Also, each will be caught in an inflationary cycle, each trying to offer more than the others to constituencies defined in ethno-sectarian terms. And that inflationary cycle will itself have de-stabilizing consequences as the interests of the different constituencies come to contradict one another more openly. It will become impossible to contain them all within a single alliance.

In any case, some of the ethno-sectarian constituencies will demand more dedicated representation. The most obvious candidates for the moment are the Muslim community and the White community. But others are stirring, now that they see they cannot afford to be left behind.

We will probably be left with one or two cross-class, cross-sectarian, rainbow alliances. My bets would be on NuLabour plus one other – though it will be interesting to see whether, ultimately, there will be room even for two.

And alongside these, will come the parties explicitly based upon sect or race – BNP, Respect (at least until the Islamists find a more satisfactory vehicle), the Christian People’s Party (which is picking up a lot of the ‘ethnic’ vote in London), etc.

The competition between those identity parties is going to become irresistibly more intense as the logic of multi-culturalism continues to work itself out. And as the competition intensifies, anyone arguing for politics based on the universal interests of the working class will face denunciation as a traitor to his own people / sect / ethnos. And the penalties for disloyalty will become more severe.

 

[rhys gethin]

The competition between those identity parties is going to become irresistibly more intense as the logic of multi-culturalism continues to work itself out. And as the competition intensifies, anyone arguing for politics based on the universal interests of the working class will face denunciation as a traitor to his own people / sect / ethnos. And the penalties for disloyalty will become more severe.

So, what's new? Whenever capitalism appears to be working, these divisive fantasies have appeared, to appeal to those rendered 'rootless' by the changes the system brings. People like Bin Laden and Bush are NOT religious really - just nostalgic atheists. When the system ISN'T working the boss-class tries to build on this nonsense, but for most people it breaks down the moment it meets reality - unless the bossmen can find ex-military nutters to attack the new movements that emerge and stop people hearing the truth. Our desperate problem is that the work has all to be done anew after the Long Boom, and there may not be time before the system kills us all.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

For as long as power systems have been in operation there have been confessional sects/parties that have at some time attracted a measure of support. There is nothing new in this and with the collapse of organised vehicles for class based politics such as the TU movement and the labour party there is inevitably a vacuum to be filled. All over the world the same thing has happened , religions of all shades have stepped into the gap as the discontent which used to fire class based movements is still very much there (inevitably as capitalism is getting worse for the majority). Religion is as Marx once said "the heart of a heartless world" by that he meant that religion provided a means for people to understand a world in which nothing was sacred and capitalism was liable to uproot anything at any time in order to make more money. Religion has revived recently partly because class politics was declared dead and the traditional vehicles either converted to capitalist-liberalism or vanished but also because during the 1990's life for many people got worse at a time when the economic outlook was supposedly good. For instance, in the USA during the long boom based around the net there were mass factory closures, increased casualisation of the labour force and previously secure jobs (such as the car industry in Detroit) began to vanish. The traditional bureaucratic union movement was allied to the democrats who were happy to see manufacturing jobs outsourced and offerred nothing to the people hit the hardest by economic changes. Hence the republicans were able to use the christian right to attract many people who would only ever be hurt by the business elite policies pursued by the republicans in state capitals and the capitol building itself. When class politics declines this process is inevitable as people seek a way to understand the world around them.

 

[Thomsy]

Rhys gethin –

The UK now has a swiftly developing ethno-sectarian segregation of housing, and an increasingly racialised division of labour. We also have a political orthodoxy that says the government should govern our ‘communities’ by negotiating among the religious leaders, elders and headmen of these distinct and increasingly competitive communities. (It is curious to observe how the British state is now attempting to deploy the same policies and tactics that were hitherto employed in our imperial colonies – only this time they are deploying them within the body of Britain itself.)

You say this type of ethno-sectarian “nonsense” will “break down the moment it meets reality”. In fact, the ethnicization and sectarianisation of British politics is now so entrenched that the fall-out from any future recession will almost certainly be expressed in ethnic and sectarian forms of conflict.

Identity politics and sectarianism have their own dynamic. You cannot explain the Black-Asian riots in Birmingham last year on the basis of economism. You cannot witness, as I did, a white British crowd on St George’s Day lynching an effigy of George Gallaway for treason without realizing that something more profound is at stake than jobs and conditions.

 

[Thomsy]

Hawkeye - You seem to be saying that sectarianism and ethnic conflict are ‘nothing new’, and I agree. Here in England, we are reverting to a species of sectarian politics that we last saw in the C17th and C18th. In Northern Ireland, of course, they have a more recent experience of this sort of politics. I studied in Antrim (Northern Ireland) some years back, and I hear people in Britain now speaking in exactly the same ways as I heard then about their irreducible identities. Once those things becomes the staple of political contention, you can generally kiss liberal and democratic politics goodbye. You get left with issues of ‘loyalty’ and ‘treason’. Non-negotiables.

I’m not saying the disaster will happen overnight. But it is happening faster than we expected. We had the spectacle the other week of a British government minister having to warn the people of Bradford, East London, etc., that they will not be permitted to live by a different set of laws. I heard a sober ‘security expert’ of Sky News the other week talking, for the first time, about sectarian ‘paramilitary formations’ in England. I now hear people openly talking from a racial and sectarian perspective about the need to ‘resist’ what is happening, and to ‘defend’ their cultural and physical territory.

I’m not even saying the disaster was inevitable. I’m saying the politics of multi-culturalism have led us to the brink. Economic issues won’t go away, but the fundamental issues in England over the coming decade are going to relate to the ethnic and sectarian fragmentation of our society. Class politics will be refracted through that prism. The fault line will be the choice between ‘ethno-sectarianism’ and ‘nationalism’.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Stuff like the galloway thing has always happened. I saw a punch cartoon from 1916 depicting Ramsey MacDonald being "hoist by his own petard" after the seaman's union refused to transport him to a socialist conference because of his anti-war views. Yes the UK is more ethnically diverse than it has been but many workplaces have people from all kinds of backgrounds in them. I work in a very low level job and the workforce is very mixed and by and large gets on fine. There is a problem with segregation of communities and those who regard themselves as progressives should work to overcome this. But bear in mind that people have been horrendously divided before on the grounds of religion (the protestant catholic divide for instance) but it can be overcome. I don'y think we're as fucked as you seem to believe.

 

[Thomsy]

Hi Hawkeye – I thought you were over in the States.

I guess we’ll have to disagree about how much of a mess Britain is in. I work much of the time in Egypt where the sectarian divisions are systemic and (for the Christians at least) quite bloody. I am shocked each time I return home to find how much like Egypt Britain is becoming. I think a dynamic has been set in motion in Britain that it will be very difficult to halt.

You say progressives should ‘work to overcome’ divisions and segregation. The fact is, though, that many progressives in the UK work hand in glove with the state to prioritise and intensify ethno-sectarian identities.

I’m not disputing that peoples can overcome sectarian divisions. I just think history shows that it is extremely difficult to do so once those identities and loyalties have been entrenched. Even where possible, it takes decades or generations or centuries. The Christians and Muslims of Egypt have lived side-by-side but in almost-total cultural isolation from each other for almost 1400 years. I believe that is what will happen in many parts of England. And that will utterly subordinate class politics.

In Britain, Europe, and even in the Middle East for short periods, it is nationalism that has served to transcend ethnic and sectarian differences. That’s why I said we are now left with Hobson’s choice: sectarianism or nationalism.

 

[rhys gethin]

Rhys gethin –

The UK now has a swiftly developing ethno-sectarian segregation of housing, and an increasingly racialised division of labour. We also have a political orthodoxy that says the government should govern our ‘communities’ by negotiating among the religious leaders, elders and headmen of these distinct and increasingly competitive communities. (It is curious to observe how the British state is now attempting to deploy the same policies and tactics that were hitherto employed in our imperial colonies – only this time they are deploying them within the body of Britain itself.)

In only some places. In others - like the small town I live in just now - there is a much greater mix, with people of all sorts living happily together.

You say this type of ethno-sectarian “nonsense” will “break down the moment it meets reality”. In fact, the ethnicization and sectarianisation of British politics is now so entrenched that the fall-out from any future recession will almost certainly be expressed in ethnic and sectarian forms of conflict..

Not half as entrenched as in the Nineteenth Century - religion is practically dead in Britain, the picking on Jews is a thing of the past and the bullying of Irish and Welsh people has been hugely reduced. There are new ethnic groups to pick on, certainly, but only in certain areas are the tensions rising, as far as I can see, except as a sort of unfocussed anti-government snarl. And there are, despite all the defeats and treacheries, far more socialists than there were in the Nineteenth Century too

Identity politics and sectarianism have their own dynamic. You cannot explain the Black-Asian riots in Birmingham last year on the basis of economism. You cannot witness, as I did, a white British crowd on St George’s Day lynching an effigy of George Gallaway for treason without realizing that something more profound is at stake than jobs and conditions.

Only during the current colonialist drive against Muslim countries. Devolution and the sort-of-settlement in Northern Ireland have greatly reduced smouldering resentments . Attacks by 'patriots' on decent people go back at least to the burning of Priestley's house by the Church and State mobs during the French Revolution time - and they tried to lynch Lloyd George in that same Birmingham for opposing the Boer War. Didn't you have physical disagreements with BNP intellectuals during the invasion of Iraq? This isn't new - just yet another example of the ultimate vacancy and violence of toryism in all its forms. As always, it is WE who are in the majority - if we stop telling ourselves miserable stories and take control of our streets.

Not, fair play, that I don't understand your feelings. It has not been the best part of my life, these last few years.

 

[durruti02]

Hawkeye - You seem to be saying that sectarianism and ethnic conflict are ‘nothing new’, and I agree. Here in England, we are reverting to a species of sectarian politics that we last saw in the C17th and C18th. In Northern Ireland, of course, they have a more recent experience of this sort of politics. I studied in Antrim (Northern Ireland) some years back, and I hear people in Britain now speaking in exactly the same ways as I heard then about their irreducible identities. Once those things becomes the staple of political contention, you can generally kiss liberal and democratic politics goodbye. You get left with issues of ‘loyalty’ and ‘treason’. Non-negotiables.

I’m not saying the disaster will happen overnight. But it is happening faster than we expected. We had the spectacle the other week of a British government minister having to warn the people of Bradford, East London, etc., that they will not be permitted to live by a different set of laws. I heard a sober ‘security expert’ of Sky News the other week talking, for the first time, about sectarian ‘paramilitary formations’ in England. I now hear people openly talking from a racial and sectarian perspective about the need to ‘resist’ what is happening, and to ‘defend’ their cultural and physical territory.

I’m not even saying the disaster was inevitable. I’m saying the politics of multi-culturalism have led us to the brink. Economic issues won’t go away, but the fundamental issues in England over the coming decade are going to relate to the ethnic and sectarian fragmentation of our society. Class politics will be refracted through that prism. The fault line will be the choice between ‘ethno-sectarianism’ and ‘nationalism’.

interesting stuff .. but interested what you with your most rose tinted glasses on would see as a way out then .. presumably not Respect or bnp?