Victorian construction costs were low, partly because wages were low and health and safety regulations very slack, where they existed at all, but also because there was much less in the way of bureaucracy, few or no requirements to compensate people for disruption, the methods of construction were low-tech and cheap, and I've certainly seen it suggested that loans for investment were a fair bit cheaper than they are now, especially prior to the financial difficulties of the late 1860s. The Victorians were generally less risk-averse than we are, too...
The future of public transport in London
- Thread starter citydreams
- Start date
Victorian construction costs were low, partly because wages were low and health and safety regulations very slack, where they existed at all, but also because there was much less in the way of bureaucracy, few or no requirements to compensate people for disruption, the methods of construction were low-tech and cheap, and I've certainly seen it suggested that loans for investment were a fair bit cheaper than they are now, especially prior to the financial difficulties of the late 1860s. The Victorians were generally less risk-averse than we are, too...
citydreams
on the road again
Yes, because it's an idea, not a policy.
there isn't any proposal..
so you think that were public transport accessible enough that people would naturally leave their cars at home? and that publicity campaigns alone would encourage people to travel not only off-peak, but more environmentally?
I'm afraid that the travelcard in its current form may have had its day.
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
The peak/off peak issue is hardly a new one - it's been afflicting the public transport in London since the nineteenth century.
Thing is, just how much elasticity is there in peak/off-peak travel? I'd wager that the vast majority people who travel in peak hours don't have much choice in the matter. Anyone with half a clue will choose to travel between 9:30 am and 5 pm if they can.
If I were to cycle to work a couple of days a week, it would effectively cost me more than using the bus and train if I've got a season ticket (wear & tear + opportunity cost of not using the card + the notional cost of the extra risk of cycling).
Giving me some points for off-peak travel is of no use to me if I'm at work when I can use it and I've already paid for my annual Oyster card. My contract with my employer requires me to be in the office between 9 and 5.30.
If you're going to give incentives to anyone, I suspect it will have to be to employers to allow their staff the kind of flexible timekeeping to make the idea work.
Now, if I could choose to have an annual Oyster that gave me just three days a week travel for a significant discount...
Thing is, just how much elasticity is there in peak/off-peak travel? I'd wager that the vast majority people who travel in peak hours don't have much choice in the matter. Anyone with half a clue will choose to travel between 9:30 am and 5 pm if they can.
If I were to cycle to work a couple of days a week, it would effectively cost me more than using the bus and train if I've got a season ticket (wear & tear + opportunity cost of not using the card + the notional cost of the extra risk of cycling).
Giving me some points for off-peak travel is of no use to me if I'm at work when I can use it and I've already paid for my annual Oyster card. My contract with my employer requires me to be in the office between 9 and 5.30.
If you're going to give incentives to anyone, I suspect it will have to be to employers to allow their staff the kind of flexible timekeeping to make the idea work.
Now, if I could choose to have an annual Oyster that gave me just three days a week travel for a significant discount...
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Yes. A travelcard that gives bulk discount on a certain number of 'travel days' in a period, like an interrail pass would make a lot of sense to me. When I don't ride my bike, I pay as I go. This costs too much, so as a result I sometimes have guilty weeks of buying a travelcard. I'm sure the extra cost of PAYG puts some people off doing a regular cycle commute, if they're already used to the discount from normal travelcards.
(travelcard = discount on bulk travel loaded onto an oyster, not an actual piece of card
)
(travelcard = discount on bulk travel loaded onto an oyster, not an actual piece of card
)
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Oh yes, and PAYG Oyster on the trains can't come soon enough (although I realise that this is outside the remit of TFL)
In the long term, South London's railways need some serious joined up thinking to try and integrate a fractured network. They were built by competing companies, so there's sod all interchanges. I have no idea if anything can be done.
In the long term, South London's railways need some serious joined up thinking to try and integrate a fractured network. They were built by competing companies, so there's sod all interchanges. I have no idea if anything can be done.
I live out in Zone 6 (Epping end of the central line) and although I own a car I leave it at home, walk 10 mins to the station and get the tube into central London. Congestion charge notwithstanding, it would take far longer to drive and park in the city than it does to get the tube.
Nearly everyone I know does the same who lives around here and should we have to pay more to travel on the tube in peak times I'm pretty sure it would not be welcome at all.
It already about £8/day, or over £13 if you want a travelcard from here. I am fortunate to earn an OK salary but its still a lot of money per week. I imagine the cost is prohibitive for some on the minimum wage - could equate to 20-25% of the days pay spent on travel alone if they are employed in Zone 1.
I am struggling to think of a similar network in any other city I have been to that is more expensive than LU and its bloody ridiculous that a lot of the overground is extra to what we have to pay using Oyster. Maybe a few proposals should be directed towards sorting this out - its been a couple of years since Oyster came out now and its still not resolved.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Yeah, it's the train companies that are resisting Oyster. They don't want to pay for the infrastructure, plus it would mean staffing all stations permanently. TFL don't have the power to force them, even though they've (AFAIK) offered to pay for the readers/barriers.
This map
http://nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/OysterPAYG.pdf
shows how biased the rail network is towards North London in terms of PAYG oyster. It also neatly demonstrates the poor interchanges between rail routes.
And it won't get massively better any time soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card_(pay_as_you_go)_on_National_Rail
This map
http://nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/OysterPAYG.pdf
shows how biased the rail network is towards North London in terms of PAYG oyster. It also neatly demonstrates the poor interchanges between rail routes.
And it won't get massively better any time soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card_(pay_as_you_go)_on_National_Rail
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Indeed, I would have thought the crowding at peak time alone was a pretty big incentive to travel off-peak if you have any possible alternative.
I can't see that higher peak fares would help anyone tbh. Even if you were prepared to, moving within walking distance of work simply isn't an option when even flats in zone 1 cost a million plus.
I think a certain amount of crowding is an inenvitiable part of London's success.
citydreams
on the road again
(travelcard = discount on bulk travel loaded onto an oyster, not an actual piece of card
That's what we're looking at - points per travel. The more enviromentally friendly the mode, the more points. To make it fair to walkers and cyclists would mean giving out free points that could be exchanged for goods & services.
Very 'back of an envelope' calculations suggest that someone spending £130 a month would save £15
(financed through Road User Charging)
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
I'd wager most short PT trips are from mainline or tube stations to workplaces so cycling is out for that. Walking sounds practical enough but its little things like weather - someone working in Bank may walk from Liverpool St or London Bridge ona hot day and avoid the tube but not in January. If it means a charge on their Oyster - sod it, it's only £2. I don't think you can properly manage modal shift like that on that basis.
I think short term, I reckon you achieve modal shift to bus from car or Tube far easier in zone 1 if the Red Arrow network was expanded and made free and run only in rush hours only to save costs (the only time people use them ime).
You could take the extra buses needed of the 25/38/73 (which aren't suitable for them imo - people use them for longer journeys) and others and replace them with those tri axle jobbies from Hong Kong as talk of the new Routemaster has become a bit of a political football. They're used by sightseeing firms so no reason why they wouldn't work imo. Capacity could be matched by slightly higher frequencies. It would cost a few bob but maybe if provision was put in place where contracts specified these, the private firms running them would cover the cost.
Maybe abolishing the zonal systems for buses altogether would also improve modal shift in London. Or travelling could be made cheaper in some areas by jigging the train zones so that Docklands with its high salaries becomes its own zone or in outer west London where Heathrow is the dominant employer, a congestion charge for the airport and also given its own travel zone with some proceeds of both going to BAA so they don't go nuts over the charge. If it was 'budget neutral', journey price into zone 1 could be made to match the new Docklands zone as an incentive to current drivers.
the staggered work hours wouldn't achieve it's intention I think and most people, give choice wold work earlier rather than later so the trickling effect would be more limited. I think and theres no benefit if you have an Oyster Travelcard. You say its had it's day but I (for one) like the fact I can make as many journeys as I like knowing I won't have to 'charge it' again until a specified time that suits me.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Bo-Jo's transport manifesto is out
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/londonmayor/files/TRANSPORTMANIFESTO.pdf
Some highlights
1) Aircon on the near surface tube (admits problems with deep surface aircon but promises to investigate)
2) Tube open hour later on Fri/Sat nights
3) 10,000 more bicycle stands (no surprise there!!)
4) More orbital bus routes to tackle congestion in outer London
5) bendy buses to be replaced with modern versions of the Routemaster when the routes come up for renewal
6) C-Charge kept (change from Norris!), account system available to prevent accidental penalty charges if you forget.
7) Motorcylists allowed in bus lanes
8) "re-phase the traffic lights with the sole intention of getting traffic flowing more smoothly." (more detail needed on how this would work IMHO)
9) Blackwall tunnel contraflow re-instated
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/londonmayor/files/TRANSPORTMANIFESTO.pdf
Some highlights
1) Aircon on the near surface tube (admits problems with deep surface aircon but promises to investigate)
2) Tube open hour later on Fri/Sat nights
3) 10,000 more bicycle stands (no surprise there!!)
4) More orbital bus routes to tackle congestion in outer London
5) bendy buses to be replaced with modern versions of the Routemaster when the routes come up for renewal
6) C-Charge kept (change from Norris!), account system available to prevent accidental penalty charges if you forget.
7) Motorcylists allowed in bus lanes
8) "re-phase the traffic lights with the sole intention of getting traffic flowing more smoothly." (more detail needed on how this would work IMHO)
9) Blackwall tunnel contraflow re-instated
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
1) Been investigated for deep level...doubt it will ever happen according to a mate who works at TFL
2) Fine...who pays for that - more fair rises?
3) Sounds good but won't improve actual cycle communting
4) Good
5) Nice soundbite but pointless now the Bendy's have been paid for
6) Interesting!
7) No, no, no
8) Def needs a lot more detail
9) No opinion on this.
ethel
Well-Known Member
also on 2) ken agreed that this was a good idea, but i believe that the unions aren't so happy. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/networkandservices/2147.aspx
Out of curiosity, is there a particular reason for this strong reaction?
newbie
undisambiguated
the bays in Poland St NCP are very narrow. All that happens is that the selfish park their 4x4s across 2 bays. Same happens with narrow on-street bays, and I've yet to see any evidence of NCP or wardens penalising this. Personally I'm all in favour or penalising those whose finite resource usage footprint is greater than average. Parking is a finite resource and those with over-large vehicles should pay more for it.
/aside
newbie
undisambiguated
but those are the very roads that currently (experimentally) allow mobikes in buslanes. They've been allowed for a couple of years and I've yet to see any problems.
citydreams
on the road again
there's been loads of motorbike accidents on that stretch.
citydreams
on the road again
Sorry, I was talking about personal experience from cycling past. I don't know the relative numbers. I read that the experiment needed further analysis, but I haven't looked into it in detail.
citydreams
on the road again
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Hardly an unbiased source, is it, CD?
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
I'd happily pay 50% higher fares if it meant clippies. I think a lot of people would. If spread amongst Travelcards, the rise would be less. Thats if any of this is actually true of course.
Ken said he'd buy 7000 new hydrogen buses as soon as they were available so where would that money have come from?
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
I think it depends what press you believe.
how about getting rid of travel cards on oyster card, so that there was always an incentive to walk or cycle? the cost of a single journey could be reduced to compensate somewhat. i guess the downside would be that some people who always had to use public transport would have to pay slightly more, and it would work out cheaper to occasionally drive rather than use public transport.
but to me it seems wrong that any journey should be free - there should always be an incentive for walking/cycling, even if you have a travelcard...
fjydj
is specified
Bit pie in the sky but what about a reverse oyster charge for cyclists... if you have a weekly card or higher swipe it on a cyclist oyster card reader and get an extra day added to your travelcard?
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