The Future of Brixton

[phildwyer]

I think the misconception is that Brixton has been entirely dominated by black culture since the West Indian (Windrush) influx. Not entirely true in my experience - not least for the (apparently disproportionately high) number of asian, chinese and white west indians who emigrated at the same time to the same areas. Add to that Brixton's 'native' population with strong Irish and Portuguese roots.

Its true that Brixton has *never* been a black majority area. But to anyone who knew the place 25 years ago, the changes today are dramatic indeed, and are unmistakeably indicative of gentrification which, in London, means more white people and less black people. Surely neither you nor anyone else (except Blagsta, naturally) can deny this?

 

[ladyjmx]

ladyjmx, I imagine the thing that makes people suspect is mainly that your first post is about such a controversal issue for this forum where arguments go round and round, often turn abusive, and then get binned. I normally stay clear of them myself for exactly those reasons. I personally am somewhat sceptical but on the other hand, as I usually feel in these situations, I'd feel pretty shitty for not believing someone if they are on the level, so I'm choosing not to worry about it at the moment. If you are interested in proving to people that you're genuine maybe it might help describing how you heard about the site, what you want to come from this thread etc. I imagine if you are genuine a bunfight isn't really what you're looking for?

As for the issue up for discussion, I agree with Crispy.

I hear you. I heard about this site cos i'm doing a student film and because of the discussions in my sociology class. ( for the student film I had to location scout) the reason why my first thread was worded the way it was beacuse in another forum MV Wire which dicusses music vidoes I didn't take it seriously ( the fact I was on tha thread with professional directors) i wrote any old thing and looked stupid and imature- check out the website is MVwire.com and I'm under Jayde lee...don't know if you'll be able to view it cos you have to be a member

 

[Blagsta]

Blagsta, put him on ignore if you can't do it in your brain.

Its more amusing to see what crap he's gonna come up with next.

 

[tarannau]

Exactly. My point, on this as on other threads, is that it is foolish and misleading just to claim--as many have--that race is not a factor, or that many new arrivals to Brixton are not unconsciously racist or (which comes to the same thing) nervous around black people. That is simply *true,* and we have seen plenty of evidence of it on here lately.

You honestly think that the 'natives' of Brixton in the Windrush era weren't nervous of the influx back then. You honestly think that things haven't improved since then?

In your haste to play the race card and 'white people are unconciously racist' again, you seem to ignore the actual thread subject Phil? Or are you honestly, with a straight face, going to argue that the more working class inhabitants of Brixton back then were far more tolerant and unworried by our arrival than well off 'yuppies' are now.

I remember far more local BNP strongholds back then for example...

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Bit of a weird reception this. Far as I can tell, there's no suspect motives going on here. Sounds like a genuine person. If she starts making injokes that only long-time posters would come up with or something similar, then maybe I'd be suspicious...

As for the actual topic: People in an area are being 'forced out' by new arrivals. This happens everywhere, but the 'dividing line' is not between white and black, but rich and poor. Unfortunately, due to hundreds of years of pretty standard human shittiness, white/rich and poor/black are statistically related. Seeing as there's still plenty of that shittiness around, a problem that has its roots in money and capitalism is worsened by racism and suspicion. Vicous circle

I don't disagree with your logic. So where does that leave me?

Does that mean (assuming I lead a 'rhiteous' life) I can't live where I want because of the 'evil' of our ancestors....

I believe I should be able to choose Brixton as a place to live....as long as I live by its values (accepting diversity. . . promoting local business not Tescos. . .being friendly to all creeds etc. . .)

Does the vicious cycle you refer to mean I shouldn't be here?

 

[phildwyer]

I hear you. I heard about this site cos i'm doing a student film and because of the discussions in my sociology class. ( for the student film I had to location scout) the reason why my first thread was worded the way it was beacuse in another forum MV Wire which dicusses music vidoes I didn't take it seriously ( the fact I was on tha thread with professional directors) i wrote any old thing and looked stupid and imature- check out the website is MVwire.com and I'm under Jayde lee...don't know if you'll be able to view it cos you have to be a member

Well Blagsta? Still think she's a fake? You wouldn't have been jumping to your usual dodgy assumptions about who writes what, and how, and why, would you?

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Why I smell a rat....

Thank you some one who doesn't see me as racist but as speaking my mind- freedom of speech, remember that? It's funny how people change freedom of speech into racism, homophobia when they dont't like what you are saying Can you direct me to these past threads you're talking about I want to see what people have previuosly said.

The fact that this very issue has kicked off a lot recently and then out of the blue you appear doing a project on it from your local Brixton sociology class (aged 17) smells fishy....

 

[tarannau]

Its true that Brixton has *never* been a black majority area. But to anyone who knew the place 25 years ago, the changes today are dramatic indeed, and are unmistakeably indicative of gentrification which, in London, means more white people and less black people. Surely neither you nor anyone else (except Blagsta, naturally) can deny this?

I was here 25 years ago you plonker, more than 30 in fact.

Born and raised. Not in Philadelphia, but Brixton.

Would you say that the West Indians, predominantly black, who moved and improved struggling South London neighbourhoods in Streatham and Mitcham, have gentrified their area and contributed to a rise in property values? Haven't they increased the racial mix in those areas, perhaps even leading to more mixed race folks like me?

Or does your conveniently controversial viewpoint only work one way?

 

[hungry 4 kicks]

Well Blagsta? Still think she's a fake? You wouldn't have been jumping to your usual dodgy assumptions about who writes what, and how, and why, would you?

You're a wind up merchant lad.

If you care so much about the issue why don't you respond to it and not resort to argument ad hominem in your every post....

your tone is very unlikable. . . it's like an over-excited school bully victim for whom the tables have turned.....I wonder why they all seem to hate you?. . .

 

[Crispy]

Hmmm, I'm not sure that was exactly what Crispy was saying, though I agree that of course there must be some white people moving to Brixton who are subconsiously racist. On the other hand the assumption that all white people moving to Brixton are racist is in itself a racist statement.

It's Phil's fun habit of using words in different ways to the rest of the world, which makes his arguments seem much more controversial than they really are. Witness his Intelligent Design thread, which got incredibly heated - turned out his idea of ID was some sort of nebulous Platonic thing with very little relation to the ID that's being pushed in the USA.

In this case, Phil's talking about the innate, unconcious filtering of the outside world that everybody does. Due to (unfortunate) social conditionaing, there is a residual mistrust of The Other that lurks inside us. For people in a majority (white people, say), it's common for The Other (black people, say) to be relatively unknown in personal contact. All the subconcious has to go on are anecdotes from friends, TV, newspapers etc. You can see where I'm going with this.

Phil labels this 'unconcious racism' which sounds just like 'racism' so people say "I'm no racist!", even though I doubt there's a person alive on the planet who does not harbour unconcious prejudice of some sort.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Or does your conveniently controversial viewpoint only work one way?

But what is his viewpoint? I don't recognise it in any of the responses that have been made to it here.

 

[phildwyer]

You honestly think that the 'natives' of Brixton in the Windrush era weren't nervous of the influx back then. You honestly think that things haven't improved since then?

In your haste to play the race card and 'white people are unconciously racist' again, you seem to ignore the actual thread subject Phil? Or are you honestly, with a straight face, going to argue that the more working class inhabitants of Brixton back then were far more tolerant and unworried by our arrival than well off 'yuppies' are now.

I remember far more local BNP strongholds back then for example...

Of course many of the white Cockneys were more viscerally racist in the 50's and 60's than the yuppies are today. And BNP (although it would have been NF back then) strongholds are obviously worse than the genteel, subtle racism of today's newcomers. But the difference is that, today, working-class inhabitants (of *any* colour, but in Brixton that means disproportionately black) are being driven out of Brixton, whereas before they were moving in. That's an important difference. And the street culture and ambience of Brixton *has* become notably less West Indian in the last 5, 10, 15 years. And an important reason for that is the attitudes evinced by Blagsta and others on this and related threads.

 

[AverageJoe]

I dont think colour is the issue. I think attitude is the issue that causes problems. Either through a lack of understanding or selfishness.

I lived in Brixton for nearly three years, and was really sad when i had to leave. I found that peoples who's attitude sucked, regardless of colour or ethnicity, were the ones that caused grief.

I only had a problem with one person in three years, and that was the 'spare change' man.

I think looking for a solution to the gentrification issues around Brixton go far beyond colour - there are a lot of rich black and white people as well as poor ones in the area - trying to pitch Brixton as the new Africa (where the blacks are reclaiming the farms) in reverse polarity is just misplaced.

The problem is the same worldwide, but i think that the type of spirit and character that most of Brixton people possess (in so far as I believe most Brixtonites to be more aware of issues, more proud of their heritage, and in the most place more aware of their surroundings) makes them also more vociferous in their beliefs.

Its a hard task to answer in one e-mail ladyjmx, and i hope that you can see the jist of what I am trying to say.

Attituda is the problem, not colour

 

[Blagsta]

The fact that this very issue has kicked off a lot recently and then out of the blue you appear doing a project on it from your local Brixton sociology class (aged 17) smells fishy....

This subject has been done to death. FWIW, I do think there is a debate to be had about gentrification but its more about class than race (although there is obviously a race component). The reason I'm not interested in this thread is that
(a) I'm suspicious of the OP (although I could be wrong)
(b) Nothing new will come out of this
(c) The OP and phildwyer seem to be bent on racialising what is mostly an issue of class and economics. I'm very suspicous of that

 

[ladyjmx]

The fact that this very issue has kicked off a lot recently and then out of the blue you appear doing a project on it from your local Brixton sociology class (aged 17) smells fishy....

No, you misunderstood me.Film studies and Sociology class are different. Studying crime and deviance in sociologyy and it quickly came up in the many discussions we have...beacuse I'm from brixton it kinda struck a chord and for some weird reason i thought I was the only one who was feeling this way, shows I'm not.

 

[Blagsta]

It's Phil's fun habit of using words in different ways to the rest of the world, which makes his arguments seem much more controversial than they really are. Witness his Intelligent Design thread, which got incredibly heated - turned out his idea of ID was some sort of nebulous Platonic thing with very little relation to the ID that's being pushed in the USA.

In this case, Phil's talking about the innate, unconcious filtering of the outside world that everybody does. Due to (unfortunate) social conditionaing, there is a residual mistrust of The Other that lurks inside us. For people in a majority (white people, say), it's common for The Other (black people, say) to be relatively unknown in personal contact. All the subconcious has to go on are anecdotes from friends, TV, newspapers etc. You can see where I'm going with this.

Phil labels this 'unconcious racism' which sounds just like 'racism' so people say "I'm no racist!", even though I doubt there's a person alive on the planet who does not harbour unconcious prejudice of some sort.

Again, there's a debate to be had about othering and projection but unfortunately I don't think phil actually wants a debate, I think he just wants to attempt to feel superior.

 

[Crispy]

Does the vicious cycle you refer to mean I shouldn't be here?

Afraid so. The Market's Hand may be Invisible, but it's got a mean right hook. Also, on average, people are cunts.

And, like it or not, we all pay for the actions of our ancestors - directly or not - every single day. That's why it's so important to choose the right path for the future, as the number of people you affect in the future is infinitely larger than the people you affect in the present.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's Phil's fun habit of using words in different ways to the rest of the world, which makes his arguments seem much more controversial than they really are. Witness his Intelligent Design thread, which got incredibly heated - turned out his idea of ID was some sort of nebulous Platonic thing with very little relation to the ID that's being pushed in the USA.

In this case, Phil's talking about the innate, unconcious filtering of the outside world that everybody does. Due to (unfortunate) social conditionaing, there is a residual mistrust of The Other that lurks inside us. For people in a majority (white people, say), it's common for The Other (black people, say) to be relatively unknown in personal contact. All the subconcious has to go on are anecdotes from friends, TV, newspapers etc. You can see where I'm going with this.

Phil labels this 'unconcious racism' which sounds just like 'racism' so people say "I'm no racist!", even though I doubt there's a person alive on the planet who does not harbour unconcious prejudice of some sort.

Absolutely. Moreover when we live in a society where there are racial tensions, we do find ourselves worrying more about the possible actions and motives of people in the "other" group than we do about peopke in "our" group - and then we can't talk about it because everybody starts shouting "are you calling me a racist?".

I think I've learned a lot from living in London, and much of it adds up to saying that you don't just become unprejudiced just be wanting to be so, and in fact you can never, in a divided society, entirely free yourself from fears and preconceptions. And, moreover, that you're not a worse person for admitting this and that it would be healthier if we discussed it in the open.

 

[Blagsta]

And an important reason for that is the attitudes evinced by Blagsta and others on this and related threads.

and what attitude is that then phil?

 

[phildwyer]

But what is his viewpoint? I don't recognise it in any of the responses that have been made to it here.

Thing is Donna, most people just don't *read* properly here. They respond instantly, in a rage, and they miss what is really being said. The constant misunderstanding to which Crispy correctly points is a function of this. It doesn't really take much thought to see that "unconcious racism" is not the same as "racism," does it? But try explaining the distinction to Blagsta. Go on, *try* it.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

In this case, Phil's talking about the innate, unconcious filtering of the outside world that everybody does. Due to (unfortunate) social conditionaing, there is a residual mistrust of The Other that lurks inside us. For people in a majority (white people, say), it's common for The Other (black people, say) to be relatively unknown in personal contact. All the subconcious has to go on are anecdotes from friends, TV, newspapers etc. You can see where I'm going with this.

Phil labels this 'unconcious racism' which sounds just like 'racism' so people say "I'm no racist!", even though I doubt there's a person alive on the planet who does not harbour unconcious prejudice of some sort.

Ah, OK. I'm well aware of the concept of the "other". Well, technically then he has a point, but then also surely it's exactly the same for the black community viewing the white. And for many people, these little unconscious preconceptions are so slight that talking about them is a bit useless really when there is the suggestion that these unconsious thoughts are akin with conscious or subconsious racism.

 

[ladyjmx]

This subject has been done to death. FWIW, I do think there is a debate to be had about gentrification but its more about class than race (although there is obviously a race component). The reason I'm not interested in this thread is that
(a) I'm suspicious of the OP (although I could be wrong)
(b) Nothing new will come out of this
(c) The OP and phildwyer seem to be bent on racialising what is mostly an issue of class and economics. I'm very suspicous of that

What is an OP?...and for once I agree with you Blagsta i really don't see this going anywhere...the forums on Mv Wire are much more productive.

 

[tarannau]

And the street culture and ambience of Brixton *has* become notably less West Indian in the last 5, 10, 15 years. And an important reason for that is the attitudes evinced by Blagsta and others on this and related threads.

Also there are far more Colombians, more Brazilians, more Asians in Brixton now - more from further waves of immigration. Are these folks too white, or don't they fit your 'rich white propertyguy' stereotype

The West Indian influx wasn't going to last forever. People want to move on, not always live in the same neighbourhood.

Why are you being so patronising? We've got enough decent West Indian Brixtonians here to speak their mind. We don't need some ill-informed unperceptive berk from Philadelphia speaking duck on our behalf?

 

[Blagsta]

Thing is Donna, most people just don't *read* properly here. They respond instantly, in a rage, and they miss what is really being said. The constant misunderstanding to which Crispy correctly points is a function of this. It doesn't really take much thought to see that "unconcious racism" is not the same as "racism," does it? But try explaining the distinction to Blagsta. Go on, *try* it.

Oh the irony.

 

[Blagsta]

What is an OP?...and for once I agree with you Blagsta i really don't see this going anywhere...the forums on Mv Wire are much more productive.

OP = Original Poster

 

[phildwyer]

The OP and phildwyer seem to be bent on racialising what is mostly an issue of class and economics. I'm very suspicous of that

If you can't see that, in Brixton, class and race intersect in such a way that the one is simply *inseparable* from the other, there is little hope for you. You are clearly uncomfortable discussing race, as we see from the fact that you instantly resort to just shouting "racist" when anyone so much as mentions the subject. That does not mean that the rest of us cannot carry on a discussion on this issue. Perhaps the time has come for you to leave this thread?

 

[Crispy]

What is an OP?...and for once I agree with you Blagsta i really don't see this going anywhere...the forums on Mv Wire are much more productive.

Sorry about that. It's an argument that's been had thousands of times round here, and it always ends up in a fight

Anyway, urban75, productive? You're having a laugh!

 

[Blagsta]

If you can't see that, in Brixton, class and race intersect in such a way that the one is simply *inseparable* from the other, there is little hope for you. You are clearly uncomfortable discussing race, as we see from the fact that you instantly resort to just shouting "racist" when anyone so much as mentions the subject. That does not mean that the rest of us cannot carry on a discussion on this issue. Perhaps the time has come for you to leave this thread?

Oh the heavy heavy irony.

 

[phildwyer]

Ah, OK. I'm well aware of the concept of the "other". Well, technically then he has a point, but then also surely it's exactly the same for the black community viewing the white.

No, its *not* exactly the same. There is a power imbalance between black and white people that renders the phenomenon of racism quite different depending on the direction in which it flows.

 

[AverageJoe]

phildwyer.

I wouldnt think that I had the answer to any of the problems that there in Philadelphia by watching a Tom Hanks film, and I dont think that you will be able to objectively grasp the sense of peoples loyalty to Brixton by reading a forum.

You seem to have a lot of opinions, and maybe genuinely want to change things.

Maybe you should start in your own back yard before crossing to these shores