The Fatwah Programme

[moono]

KJ;

Why is that 'personal twaddle' it was just an observation on how your behavior is percieved. But lets not get personally abusive lets debate the issues shall we.

You mean you've had your personal abuse session but I don't get a turn.

You've expressed your knowledge of 'the Hamas view' earlier and I asked you, what is it and is it shaped by anything like this;

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f

Are they 'socialist Zionists' , 'nationalist Zionists', 'terrorist Zionists', what sort of Zionists are these, KJ ?

 

[Spion]

Mine is a two state solution with economic ties to benefit all.

I don't think resources should be dished out on the basis of ethnicity. I'm not in favour of it in the UK and I'm not in favour of it anywhere else.

So, I'm for a single state with equal rights for all and the right of return for exiled Palestinians and their families or compensation for lands lost in 1947/48.

 

[moono]

KJ;

I consider myself to be a socialist Zionist. I want to see a Jewish state in Israel that accepts and nurtures minority peoples and opinions and doesn't oppress either its own peoples or others.

What do you want to see Moono? Mine is a two state solution with economic ties to benefit all.

Firstly, I want to see Israel comply with existing international law, which is where you first came in with your foot in your mouth.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KJ;


Firstly, I want to see Israel comply with existing international law, which is where you first came in with your foot in your mouth.

Now now I've not given you any insults yet you come back with bollocks about feet in mouth.

Of course Israel should comply with international law but equally the Arabs shouldn't be targetting civilians in Israel. Where does it say that bombing buses or lobbing missiles at civilian areas is an approved activity under international law.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KJ;


You mean you've had your personal abuse session but I don't get a turn.

You've expressed your knowledge of 'the Hamas view' earlier and I asked you, what is it and is it shaped by anything like this;

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f

Are they 'socialist Zionists' , 'nationalist Zionists', 'terrorist Zionists', what sort of Zionists are these, KJ ?

First of all I've not been personally abusive to you. I've asked you from what point of view you are coming from and expressed concern that you have an inability to see both sides of an argument. That is fair comment not personal abuse. If I was to call you (which I won't but I've seen a few of this type in the UK Left pro Palestininan groups) a blinkered possibly middle class student who has never met a Palestinian nor an Israelli and can't step outside their own self righteousness to see the bigger picture and is driven by a desire to have 'a cause' rather than to heal divisions then that would be personal abuse.

Secondly I've not come across that site before but it looks interesting.

Thirdly you asked me what sort of 'zionist' would do such a thing I would say a misguided drunken religious nutter. All societies have their religious nutters tthe problem comes when they get the sniff of any sort of power. The Israelis don't have a monopoly on violent religious nutters which with your obvious indepth knowledge of the Middle East you would know about.

I attended an interesting talk recently by the current Palestininan Representative to London the de facto Ambassador and he said that the increasing religiousity of the conflict is making the situation worse. That worsening of the situation by the involvement of religious nutters who shout very loud and are often not representative of majority opinion in either community.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I don't think resources should be dished out on the basis of ethnicity. I'm not in favour of it in the UK and I'm not in favour of it anywhere else.

So, I'm for a single state with equal rights for all and the right of return for exiled Palestinians and their families or compensation for lands lost in 1947/48.

And what do you think will happen to the Jews if there is a single state solution? Do you reckon that the Muslims will let them live in peace or will they be expelled and harassed like has happened to Jewish communities throughout the Mid East.

Look at the facts man. Palestinian Christians are leaving in droves since Hamas gained power even though some of the crucial votes for Hamas were protest votes against the corruption of Fatah. If the Pal Christians are feeling scared how much worse will it be for the Jews in the area.

I'm not proposing resources allocated on the grounds of ethnicity. What I'm saying is that there should be a two state solution with economic co operation to build up civil society in the Palestinian State. Eventually this should lead to a sort of Mid East EU. People are less likely to kill their neighbour if they depend on their neighbour for trade.

 

[moono]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f

Are they 'socialist Zionists' , 'nationalist Zionists', 'terrorist Zionists', what sort of Zionists are these, KJ ?

Well ?

 

[poster342002]

And what do you think will happen to the Jews if there is a single state solution? Do you reckon that the Muslims will let them live in peace or will they be expelled and harassed like has happened to Jewish communities throughout the Mid East.

I think that's not necessarliy a given. A unified "Republic of Israel and Palestine" could work safely for both communities providing proper checks and balances and law-enforcemtn were put in place. Nations split into ethnic statelets don't have a good history of working - see Northern Ireland for example.

And a two-state solution could still result in fundamentalist regimes taking over in one or both of them and leading to all-out war again, anyway.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Well ?

I gave you my answer. A drunken religious nutter.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think that's not necessarliy a given. A unified "Republic of Israel and Palestine" could work safely for both communities providing proper checks and balances and law-enforcemtn were put in place. Nations split into ethnci statelets don't have a good history of working - see Northern Ireland for example.

I don't think that the UN could enforce this. What is possible but would piss off the religous nutters on both sides is making the old city of Jerusalem at least a UN administered city.

You say that ethnic states have a bad history up to a point I'd agree with you but then neither did ignoring ethnic lines and carving up whole continents in to nation states containing two or more clashing ethnic groups which is what happened with Africa.

 

[derf]

Well ?

You didn't answer my post moono.

John lennon said "give peace a chance" and I agree.
What do you think ?

Is there room to put killing aside and try a solution based on showing the wrong that israel is doing to the world ?

Death has done nothing for the cause of Muslims in the area or the rest of the world. Lets try another way.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You didn't answer my post moono.

John lennon said "give peace a chance" and I agree.
What do you think ?

Is there room to put killing aside and try a solution based on showing the wrong that israel is doing to the world ?

Death has done nothing for the cause of Muslims in the area or the rest of the world. Lets try another way.

I'm all up for the world being shown Israels wrongs as long as the same is being done to the Arab states that are doing equal wrongs.

Nobody in politics has totally clean hands. The best we can hope for is that our politicians have clean-ish hands.

It will take both sides to look deep within and say 'this is wrong' or 'that is wrong' for a proper peace.

I'm not going to get into the personal row area but I answered a question raised by Moono and my answer was ignored. See posts 35 and 39.

There have been too many deaths in this conflict.

 

[moono]

The question was 'what sort of a Zionist' is the 'drunken religious nutter'. You avoided answering.

You're a Zionist, explain to me how this repulsive and typical settler youth fits the Zionist plan.

 

[poster342002]

I don't think that the UN could enforce this. What is possible but would piss off the religous nutters on both sides is making the old city of Jerusalem at least a UN administered city.

You say that ethnic states have a bad history up to a point I'd agree with you but then neither did ignoring ethnic lines and carving up whole continents in to nation states containing two or more clashing ethnic groups which is what happened with Africa.

True enough. But I'm not sure the UN (or anybody) could enforce a two-state solution, either, tbh - I think there'd be a very real possibiltiy of it all kicking off again after a while. I'm not entirely certain it'd be the right answer, anyway: a two-state solution to Apartheid South Africa wouldn't have been too clever, for example. And wasn't the Palestinain Authority an attemp at precisely that two-state scenario?

I think Israel & Palestine needs refounding as a new, democratic nation - with both side's currently existing godawful politicians given the boot. The existing setup clearly isn't working and looks less and less salvagable as time wears on and bodies on either side continue to pile up.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The question was 'what sort of a Zionist' is the 'drunken religious nutter'. You avoided answering.

You're a Zionist, explain to me how this repulsive and typical settler youth fits the Zionist plan.

I don't know if he is a zionist of any description it is more likely a drunken religious nutter.

I can't think of any plan that involves drunken religious loonspuds.

 

[Spion]

And what do you think will happen to the Jews if there is a single state solution? Do you reckon that the Muslims will let them live in peace or will they be expelled and harassed like has happened to Jewish communities throughout the Mid East.

If the kind of $$$ resources that are currently thrown at Israel by the US, or by the US at the Iraq war come to that, are directed at creating a single state with equal rights for all and an economy which all have a stake in then there must be a chance of success.

In any case, I don't see how any solution can work unless it addresses the fundamental cause of the situation - that 1m Palestinians were expelled from their land by the state of Israel in 47-48.

To say, 'Oh well we can't address the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians because it *might* happen to the jews in future," gets us nowhere.

And if all the nearby Arab states got the levels per head of aid that Israel gets then they might enjoy more comfortable political lives and need less repressive state apparatuses. US aid per head of Israeli population is in the 1,000s of $$$s per year.

 

[moono]

KJ;

I don't know if he is a zionist of any description it is more likely a drunken religious nutter.

I'd guess, KJ , that you know little of the terrible ordeals of the Palestinians nor the depths of despair brought upon them by the 'drunken religious nutters' that you disown.

In truth, the occupation is illegal and the Zionist regime a fascist regime openly practising ethnic cleansing, apartheid, extra-judicial killing, incarceration without trial, land-theft and plain old-fashioned infanticide.

Now, I doubt that you're that kind of Zionist so I don't really want to spend a lot of time listening to you defend 'nice' Zionism when I could be getting my sword stuck into some nationalist Zionist arsehole, but suit yourself.

'Drunken religious nutters' are they ? Lol.

 

[derf]

I'm all up for the world being shown Israels wrongs as long as the same is being done to the Arab states that are doing equal wrongs.

Nobody in politics has totally clean hands. The best we can hope for is that our politicians have clean-ish hands.

It will take both sides to look deep within and say 'this is wrong' or 'that is wrong' for a proper peace.

I'm not going to get into the personal row area but I answered a question raised by Moono and my answer was ignored. See posts 35 and 39.

There have been too many deaths in this conflict.

No need to argue as we seen to agree on so much.
Israel is in the wrong in most of what it does.
The palestinians who kill at random are also wrong.
Politicians often lie to get their own ideas pushed forwards for their own reasons.

Moono seems to ignore anything that does not meet what seem to be his perverse ideas of what Islam demands. If he is a muslim he's a bad one in that it's people like him that give muslims a bad name.

For the sake of the palestinians and everyone else being hurt in this conflict we need a strong leader to come and teach peace. It may well take a while but I'm sure it can work to the benefit of all.
All this death is doing is to create more hate and further death. It serves only to hurt those who most need to see love.
With peace Israel's reasons for opressing the palestinians melts away and with it any chance they have to continue what they are doing.
It's the only way the palestinians can win the war.

Moono. Consider what the killing has done over the years. Has it really helped the palestinians ?
Do you think that TV pictures of the Israelis bulldozing houses or whatever while the palestinians just stand and do nothing would be a better way than usless violence that israel can use as an excuse?
Hard at first but it would be forced to stop by public opinion.
Public opinion is a far better weapon than a petrol bomb or any suicide bomber on a bus.

 

[Spion]

Moono seems to ignore anything that does not meet what seem to be his perverse ideas of what Islam demands. If he is a muslim he's a bad one in that it's people like him that give muslims a bad name.

Is Moono a Muslim? All the time I've posted here I've never had any reason to think that. What's your evidence?

Moono. Consider what the killing has done over the years. Has it really helped the palestinians ?
Do you think that TV pictures of the Israelis bulldozing houses or whatever while the palestinians just stand and do nothing would be a better way than usless violence that israel can use as an excuse?
Hard at first but it would be forced to stop by public opinion.
Public opinion is a far better weapon than a petrol bomb or any suicide bomber on a bus.

I think you're clueless. Most of the killing, at probably something like a raio of 10:1, has been carried out by the Israelis. It's only Palestinian resistance that has stopped things being much worse

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KJ;


I'd guess, KJ , that you know little of the terrible ordeals of the Palestinians nor the depths of despair brought upon them by the 'drunken religious nutters' that you disown. .

You are wrong I know plenty about the terrible ordeals of the Palestinians. I also know that not all the ordeals of the Palestinians are the fault of the Israelis. Some of the problems the Palestinians have faced have been down to the reprisals for the terrorism they commit. Some of the problems have been caused by the shit way they have been treated by the arab states in which they live. Don't forget that the PA is NOT a squeeky clean organisation. It is corrupt and treats its populace with distain. It is this corruption that caused people to vote for Hamas.

I have never denied that there have been brutalities committed by the Israelis. Its wrong. The occupation of Judea and Samaria has caused a coursening in the IDF which ill befits it. I've never denied that there were some expulsions but the expulsions were in part due to a situation where Jewish immigrants to Israel from the late 19th Cent onwards were facing attack from arabs. There was a situation where Arabs could live quite happily in Jewish majority areas but the reverse situation wasn't possible. Jews in Arab areas were attacked and harrassed. The leaders of the nascent Israeli state knew that at some point there would be a war with the Arabs although many tried to avoid this. You conveniently forget the fact that many people were killed in the Arab revolt in 1929 which hardened attitudes on both sides.

In truth, the occupation is illegal and the Zionist regime a fascist regime openly practising ethnic cleansing, apartheid, extra-judicial killing, incarceration without trial, land-theft and plain old-fashioned infanticide..

The occupation of the West Bank / Judea and Samaria is wrong I agree. Israels leaders after 1967 believed that the occupation would only be a short term thing. The arrival of settlers didn't help matters but they exploited internal Israeli politics to get support for their settlements.

I disagree with the idea of 'zionism equals fascism' I've met plenty of fash in my time and they don't fit that description. There are extremists of course, all movements have extremists but the danger comes in labelling all adherents to a particular ideology with a particualr epithet.

If you are looking for disgusting governments there are plenty out there who are far far worse than Israel. Why aint you standing up for the Karen people of Burma who are suffering equally under a disgusting regime.

As for extra judicial killing then yes it happens but is it any worse or better than what is happening in the surrounding arab states.

Now, I doubt that you're that kind of Zionist so I don't really want to spend a lot of time listening to you defend 'nice' Zionism when I could be getting my sword stuck into some nationalist Zionist arsehole, but suit yourself.

'Drunken religious nutters' are they ? Lol.

Moono, if some one who has lost a relative to a mentalcase settler as i mentioned earlier can find it in his heart to not make the situation worse with hatred why can't you at least see that there is more than one side in this matter and it is a tragedy for all.

The fact that you are refusing to engage with the grey areas and see both sides speaks volumes about your blinkered attitude.

 

[moono]

So, Keyboard Jockey, you follow the usual pattern; ignore ( or in your case disown) the fascism of the settlers and those that support them and , instead, wander into the tweety-pie realms of neighbourliness, 'good Zionism', Israeli rights to the plunder and a rejection of Zionist criminality.

Let's look at the legal aspects then. That was your 'foot in mouth' entry point, remember ?

KJ;

you are a fine one to talk about due process. You've a blinkered view of the whole middle east situation. I can't recall a single post you've made where you show any fair mindedness about the whole middle east situation. You just bang on with what ever line you 've been fed without looking at the big picture.

Why are there fascist settlers occupying illegal settlements in Palestine ? Let's start with something simplistic. You're a Zionist, you'll be expected to know.

 

[Spion]

I've never denied that there were some expulsions but the expulsions were in part due to a situation where Jewish immigrants to Israel from the late 19th Cent onwards were facing attack from arabs. There was a situation where Arabs could live quite happily in Jewish majority areas but the reverse situation wasn't possible. Jews in Arab areas were attacked and harrassed. The leaders of the nascent Israeli state knew that at some point there would be a war with the Arabs although many tried to avoid this. You conveniently forget the fact that many people were killed in the Arab revolt in 1929 which hardened attitudes on both sides.

Yes, of course, there were nasty things happening on all sides in the lead up to 47/48 but the net result was the expulsion of nearly 1 million Palestinians. How can the real injustice that those people suffered be righted other than by allowing them to return to their land or be compensated? That is the key question.

 

[moono]

So then, we're already into the questions of the Right of Return and withdrawal from Occupied Territories, two of the three pivots of negotiation which Olmert is currently refusing to discuss.

Why should he ? He can ignore the law as long as his backers veto censure , the same backers that think it's OK to issue international bounties on 'suspects' and practise kidnap and torture.

 

[derf]

Is Moono a Muslim? All the time I've posted here I've never had any reason to think that. What's your evidence?

I think you're clueless. Most of the killing, at probably something like a raio of 10:1, has been carried out by the Israelis. It's only Palestinian resistance that has stopped things being much worse

I'm just taking a shot at it. His avatar note and the stuff he posts make me think he may be.

I agree if you look again that the israelis do most of the killing. I would have to see numbers of dead but I would be guessing it's a lot worse than 10:1.

I say nothing to defend Israel at all and the things that it's government do but I don't think that palestinian resistance has done anything but make it worse and at he same time give the israelis an excuse to kill more muslims and destroy more muslim lives.

Suicide bombs, morters and rockets have been tried and have failed. I want to see Israel forced to giving land back and the palestinians given a chance to live in peace and have a good life in their own land. I don't think this will ever happen while the muslim side can be shown to be killing israeli civilians.

It a war where public opinion will win and if israel can be proven to be in the wrong in the minds of the US public then I can see a day where that opinion will pressure them into giving the palestinians what they want and what is rightfully theirs.

 

[TomUS]

the Zionist regime a fascist regime openly practising ethnic cleansing, apartheid, extra-judicial killing, incarceration without trial, land-theft and plain old-fashioned infanticide.

Whenever the term fascist is applied to Israel it is well to take a look back at those the Jews of Palestine were fighting in '47-'48- a people willingly led by not only a fascist but a Nazi who advocated the slaughter of all Jews.

 

[moono]

Oh, you mean the cynical old Mufti geezer who'd already witnessed the complete betrayal of Arabs by the allies after WW1 ? I agree, an arsehole, but any fool can see that he was an arsehole that fell into the arsehole Hitler's arms as a result of betrayal by other arseholes.

You want to defend the arseholes who betrayed him or do you agree to agree ?

 

[Spion]

It a war where public opinion will win and if israel can be proven to be in the wrong in the minds of the US public then I can see a day where that opinion will pressure them into giving the palestinians what they want and what is rightfully theirs.

I think you're talking tosh. If I were living in Gaza and had Merkavas rolling down my street I don't think waiting for public opinion to swing my way would do the job.

I fail to see how things could get much worse in Gaza and I don't see public opinion weeping just yet.

 

[moono]

I don't think waiting for public opinion to swing my way would do the job.

Lol.

 

[derf]

I think you're talking tosh. If I were living in Gaza and had Merkavas rolling down my street I don't think waiting for public opinion to swing my way would do the job.

I fail to see how things could get much worse in Gaza and I don't see public opinion weeping just yet.

It's not that it may get worse in the area but it's not getting any better.

The TV shows pictures of Israeli tanks knocking down palestinian homes.
We see children killed by Israeli military action.
We see pictures of the results of air attacks and more homes destroyed.

This shows the world what the Israelis are doing then we see one suicide bomb or ineffective rocket launcher from whatever Muslim group and the world sits back and understands Israel's point.

It's doing no good but, worse than that, it's harming the very people they believe they are fighting for.

I'm being very clear in saying that Israel is the side that caused all of these problems. They have killed countless Palestinians for the few Israelis that have died but they are still in control of most of the area and have given up little.

I want to see the Palestinians and others attacked by Israel have their land and control of their lives returned but it will be done by a clever PR man man backing up the actions of a strong leader willing to try a new way of fighting.

Don't think that public opinion can be changed? It can and it's more powerful than any bomb or rocket laucher.

 

[Spion]

I want to see the Palestinians and others attacked by Israel have their land and control of their lives returned but it will be done by a clever PR man man backing up the actions of a strong leader willing to try a new way of fighting.

Sounds like you're suggesting a combination of Max Clifford and Hasan Nasrallah.

Seriously though, your solution sounds far too simplistic to me. Yes, a PR battle has to be fought but on the ground Palestinians under attack have to defend themselves, and that has to carry on regardless. For the time being the PR is heavily skewed in favour of Israel in many ways, as it has the support of other states and its advocacy of its cause is v effective. I think, in fact, that the Palestinian side only really manages to keep the attention of the world by its acts of resistance.