"The Economic Impact of Immigration" Lords Economic Committee Report
- Thread starter durruti02
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that is piss poor research
"They also concede that their study, although based on the best available data in the UK, was unable to assess the impact of migration on the labour market at a local level with any real rigour or detail. They conceded that it was entirely possible that there had been short-term negative impacts on wages and jobs from migration in particular local areas. "We simply do not know for sure," they say"
one simple thing it does do not is differentiate ( as you also did not do) between wages/the economy as a whole and the lower end of w/c wages ..
the point has been made by me, ad naseum, that immigration DOES benefit a capitalist economy
- by driving down wages initially using the reserve army of unemployed ( in the 8ts) or migrant labour ( in the 00s) the economy is boosted
- the effect of this is NOT the same for all .. for poor w/c it is pretty well negative .. for many more skilled w/c it has meant their move into the supervisory class
BUT my interest has always been in how immigration affacts the class conciousness of the w/c and clearly that has been overwhelmingly negative
"They also concede that their study, although based on the best available data in the UK, was unable to assess the impact of migration on the labour market at a local level with any real rigour or detail. They conceded that it was entirely possible that there had been short-term negative impacts on wages and jobs from migration in particular local areas. "We simply do not know for sure," they say"
one simple thing it does do not is differentiate ( as you also did not do) between wages/the economy as a whole and the lower end of w/c wages ..
the point has been made by me, ad naseum, that immigration DOES benefit a capitalist economy
- by driving down wages initially using the reserve army of unemployed ( in the 8ts) or migrant labour ( in the 00s) the economy is boosted
- the effect of this is NOT the same for all .. for poor w/c it is pretty well negative .. for many more skilled w/c it has meant their move into the supervisory class
BUT my interest has always been in how immigration affacts the class conciousness of the w/c and clearly that has been overwhelmingly negative
which the unions opposed
audiotech
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From the Jewish immigrant slipper workers being supported by gasworkers in Leeds in the 19th century, to Asian immigrant photo processing workers at Grunwicks being supported by miners in the 20th century.
I can't say it's been overwhelmingly positive, but it's not as grim as your trying to paint it.
where have i said it was grim?? you simply are refusing to think about this subject ..
immigration has of course in many ways enriched our world immeasurably .. but that is not to see it's function ..
look do you like blues music?? ( actually i used to now apart from people like robert johnson i find most boring ) .. yet it comes form slavery that we oppose .. or maybe you like the Fall and the manc miserables .. yet equally they are the product of alienated fucked up capitalism ..
we can be against something due to its function yet celebrate what we the w/c get from that fucked up process
so you need to try to understand that to defeat capital we need to analyse the processes of capital ..
and that that clearly leads us to see that immigration has been used to increase exploitation and against the w/c /movement in recent years ..
BUT that does NOT mean that people who accept this are therefore AGAINST immigration socially or specifically against migrants ..
audiotech
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Refusing to think about the issue? Ha! I refuse to accept your simplistic, all over the shop. post any old rubbish analysis is more like.
Focussing on the specifics of the labour process confuses the issue and puts forward, as you continually do, a grim, pessimistic political perspective, that undermines the possibility of an alternative to capitalist exploitation, affecting all workers, including immigrants.
Refusing to think about the issue? Ha! I refuse to accept your simplistic, all over the shop. post any old rubbish analysis is more like.
Focussing on the specifics of the labour process confuses the issue and puts forward, as you continually do, a grim, pessimistic political perspective, that undermines the possibility of an alternative to capitalist exploitation, affecting all workers, including immigrants.
what is simplistic? the idea that that capital USE migrants to attack the labour movement .. FFS Marx acknowledged this process many times .. why can't you?
and yet again you betray your utter middle class liberalism ( i do not give a monkeys what class you were born into .. you come across as utterly MC on urban) with this sentance ".. Focussing on the specifics of the labour process confuses the issue .." NO socialist would write what you just did here
and YET AGAIN you ignore that the W/C was ALWAYS BUILT IN ADVERSITY, IN OPPOSITION TO THE LABOUR PROCESSES WE HAVE BEEN CONFRONTED BY
.. and it has been good .. it is a class we should celebrate .. but do we champion the PROCESS of kids cleaning chimneys?? of men working down mines, girls working looms, teenagers working in bars, of africans being shipped across the sea, etc etc
no, the processes are shite the work is shite, where most people grew up was shite
BUT whiel we build class conciousness on this shite we still HAVE to oppose it ..
lol, i can almost hear you in alabama 200 years ago arguing against opposing slavery as it was racist to oppose africans being broought to white america!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
The record's stuck...the record's stuck...the record's stuck...the record's stuck...the record's stuck
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
This about sums it up.
Huh?
This makes me laugh
Translated: I am more working class than all of you. I am your Lord and master, kneel before me! I demand it!
What a load of self-satisfied, juvenile, tosh dressed up to look like discourse. Shame on you and a plague on your house!
Huh?
This makes me laugh
Translated: I am more working class than all of you. I am your Lord and master, kneel before me! I demand it!
What a load of self-satisfied, juvenile, tosh dressed up to look like discourse. Shame on you and a plague on your house!
no comment on the OP or the debate itself nino?This about sums it up.
Huh?
This makes me laugh
Translated: I am more working class than all of you. I am your Lord and master, kneel before me! I demand it!
What a load of self-satisfied, juvenile, tosh dressed up to look like discourse. Shame on you and a plague on your house!
.. as the liberal left fades into history
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
That makes no sense whatsoever.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Don't you ever have anything else to say? I guess you don't; you're obsessed with immigration and immigrants. Your OP is practically the same as it is in all the other immigration threads that you've started. You produce this stuff in order to validate your own beliefs and for no other reason. I'd hate to inhabit a world as small as yours.
You don't want discussion because that means you'd actually have to think and maybe do some wider reading. You also cannot brook contradiction or opposition and will do your utmost to lie, cheat and misrepresent other posters pov's in order to 'win' your 'argument'.
audiotech
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fuckoff dickhead
MC you are so grown up! when you lose an arguement you start swearing lol
.. if you can't discuss argue or debate without swearing you really are well, .. it would be rude to say
so did you not like my joke that you would have defended slavery cos it would be racist to argue against the importation of black people to the white south?? he he
so how is that differrent to what you argue today ..
you defend the use of immigration by the capitalists in this country as you think it is more dangerous to be seen to be against migrant labour .. lol arse over tit is that
and i love this so much i need to repeat it! lol
"..Focussing on the specifics of the labour process confuses the issue.." and you were in the SWP! Cliff would be turning in his grave
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti 6,000 posts
nino 35,000 posts
hmm
That's hardly what anyone could call evidence and how you can use that to claim that you don't inhabit a small world is well...daft. Your interests revolve around one topic alone: immigration. That's a pretty small world by anyone's definition.
audiotech
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MC you are so grown up! when you lose an arguement you start swearing lol
.. if you can't discuss argue or debate without swearing you really are well, .. it would be rude to say
so did you not like my joke that you would have defended slavery cos it would be racist to argue against the importation of black people to the white south?? he he
so how is that differrent to what you argue today ..
you defend the use of immigration by the capitalists in this country as you think it is more dangerous to be seen to be against migrant labour .. lol arse over tit is that
and i love this so much i need to repeat it! lol
"..Focussing on the specifics of the labour process confuses the issue.." and you were in the SWP! Cliff would be turning in his grave
I defend immigrants from jokers.
The labour process is how human beings put the means of production to work, including migrants and immigrants.
You continually focus on one element of the process, immigrant labour, interchangeable with the term migrants, which you use erroneously and split it off to attack. In the process you demonstrate a class consciousness that at best appears parochial and at worse backwards and reactionary.
Your obsession is not only dangerous but dumb too, as it splits the working class and strenghthens the hand of of those you claim to oppose.
I defend immigrants from reactionary jokers.
the irony .. see KBJs like you just arse about on the urban .. on thursday i was in a stewards meeting with irish, gujerati and portugese ( and english ) stewards (and on friday i was helping represent one of the gujerati workers) .. all of whom have no problem with my/this POV ..
to anyone actually involved with grassroots trade unionism what i am arguing on here is really simple basic trade unionism and has no reactionary or racial sentiment to it whatsoever .. that you can not see this exposed you
audiotech
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So are your Irish, Gujerati and Portugese (and English) stewards in agreement with your call for further immigration controls? BjfBw?
durruti02, are you for, or against an amnesty for illegal immigrants?
audiotech
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Sneaked the racial angle in there,
which I'd like to point out I never mentioned, tut, tut. Some people in the trade unions, in the leadership and at grass roots level, are using the slogan BjfBw - reactionary or not in your opinion?
ok M/C
are u 1) thick 2) stupid or 3) a smear artist
if you wish to show you are none of the above please show where and when i have said i support immigration controls, when i have said over and over and over again i am against immigration controls and that i am against BjfBp
what i AM in favour of is the workers/TUs controlling where they work and that means TnCs, wages and recruitment.
So, i have never discussed immigration controls with my union colleagues .. but what we have discussed and do agree on is that local employers should be recruiting from the local unemployed youth at proper rates rather than as the cowboys employers did here after contracting out, employing gujeratis on less than £12k pa, as by their own admission most speak poor english, or another company employing portugese and spanish, again as they spoke even less english, on less than £10k pa.
My union and myself prioristised unionising these workers while working for these contractors and then getting these workers proper local govt rates .. which we have succeeded in pressurising the LA to do ..
BUT that does NOT take away from, is that this situation, where these cowboy companies were given contracts and the were able to bully and sack most of the the old workers on old LA rates and then employ non union non english speaking staff on vastly inferior rates and how were also then bullyed, should never have been allowed to occur.
do you really disagree with this?
and so am i against an amnesty for illegal workers? .. i am neither for or against .. i am against state repression of migrnat labour but equally against employers using migrant labour to undercut proper rates
tbh i am far more concerned that so many local kids where i live, particularly from BME, are unemployed .. Hackney has the highest economic inactivity for BME in the UK at 40% .. and yet you argue it is wrong to demand employers employ locally on proper rates .. incredible
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2009/rp09-013.pdf
racial? yes you did not but don't be so coy .. it has been the undercurrent of these discussion for yearsSneaked the racial angle in there,
Some people in the trade unions, in the leadership and at grass roots level, are using the slogan BjfBw - reactionary or not in your opinion?
BjfBw? .. it's a crap reactionary slogan .. but not one i get my knickers in a twist over .. when most people see themselves as british, and they have every right too whatever i think of that, they will use that slogan .. it is NOT as reactionary as some people seem to think
audiotech
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