The dogma of our politics

[ViolentPanda]

So what are you saying our system is defunkt? Are you saying that life in liberal democracies are just as bad as it is in dictatorships and theocracies?

I'm not saying that at all. You have a very unedifying knack of making juvenile assumptions.
I'm saying (although I seriously doubt you'll listen) that what we call and practice as "democracy" does not live up to it's dictionary description. What we have is a quasi-democracy, governance via some democratic principle.

If that is the case what do you propose we do? turn to the Ayahtollas for advice or maybe we could find our own Iron Joe?

A good old fashioned dictatorship must be better than this awfull tyrany of the corporations that we live under.

What I'd like to see is people, individually and collectively, re-asserting their grip on the reins of power. Requiring their government (if they decide that they want a government) to serve their interests, not the interests of capital.

You describe yourself as a liberal. It's a shame you don't think like one, because then you'd perhaps be a little less avid to be an apologist for power.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This all seems terribly confused. You say 'This thread is about how other liberals want to support these totalitarian movements just because of their opposition to the U.S and the kneejerk reactions you have to anyone who disagrees with the dogma that "it's all Americas fault"' but you've not provided any instances of this support existing, apart from the fact that people are opposed to the recent invasions and have the temerity to suggest that the West might not exactly have clean hands, which you seem to be saying must be because they are anti-American and pro-totalitarian (though apparently you "don't support American foreign policy").

Why are they always so inarticulate, Fridge?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Why are they always so inarticulate, Fridge?

Proper paragraphs and decent grammar, though.

 

[brucepig]

Afghanistan is actually mostly in it's terrible state because of the interference over hundreds of years of the Russian, British and (latterly) American empires, and their practice of the politics of "divide and rule".

Given that the majority of states with a majority Muslim population have secular law, your claim isn't particularly tenable, is it?

That's the core problem for you liberals, you're all so busy trying to be liberal that you lose sight of the real issues, like attacking the motive force behind man's inhumanity to man.

America does suck chihuahua balls, but so do most nation-states. It's th nature of the way they construct themselves.

Except no-one with any sense excuses bigotry.
Anyone who actually has any sense should, though, look to the causes of bigotry, to see whether that cause can be ameliorated or removed, and it is perfectly sensible to decry the cause of the bigotry as well as those that practice it.
Unless you're an idiot, of course.

You have an over-inflated sense of your own importance if you believe you've broken any taboos. All you've done is express an opinion that's mildly controversial when expressed within a system that's politically veering toward homogeneity.

Which shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of democracy.

Oh dear.

Muslims haven't had an imperial system of any sort for (officially) 90 years, and the yearning of a small minority of Muslims for a Caliphate could only be quantified as "imperialist designs" by someone who doesn't understand the fundamental nature of imperialism

Quite right most Islamic countries live under dictatorship which I equally deplore but when the dictatorship falls the usual replacement is theocracy. Theocracy is usually just as bad if not worse than dictatorship.

So you basically blame Afganistans situation on the wicked west. Ok no suprise there.

It seems you must have a high opinion of yourself as you know the answer to all of mankinds problems and don't waste time on such frivilous things as liberal values.

So America sucks and so do most nation states does that mean you support the theocrats who fight these nation states?

And if it all stinks what do you propose to replace it all with? Do you see us become one big happy anarchist family living rural lives with flowers in our hair? You all seem to poo poo democracy but you don't seem to have any better ideas.

As for bigotry I see too many anti capitalists, left wing people and liberals prepared to accept Islamic bigotry as a noble culture that deserves respect.

Cultural relativism rules, if Muslims allow domestic violence and persecution of gays or apostates who are we to argue. We are run by evil corporations after all, who are we to stand in judgment?

It certainly seems that saying that America is not all bad is a taboo and criticising Muslims is tantamount to racism. If they are not taboos I don't know what are but you are just trying to be clever and failing badly. Oh dear

I gather your definition of democracy is a Chomskyesque nightmare where a shady elite of oil men and arms dealers use the media to control credulous people like me into attacking innocent brown people thereby RULING THE WORLD HA HA HA HAHAHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I agree Muslims haven't had an empire since the end of the first world war but there is a movement of millions that would like to reverse that. If there where that many active neo nazis trying to revive the third reich would you not be worried? Or is it only the tyranny of Americans and Europeans you fear, do you think a reactionary Islamic force would be your friend?

 

[EddyBlack]

Ahh ok so we might as well let a murderous dictator rule because the corporations are in charge anyway. Democracy and freedom is just an illusion.

Have you ever been to Old Compton Street and noticed gays going about their day with no police to round them up and take them to prison, infact the police would protect them if people where attacking them but western society is terrible isn't it?

Have you noticed that the police don't shoot you dead when you hold a demonstration? But western society is just brutal isn't it?

Have you noticed that newspapers criticise Gordon Brown and he fears losing the next election. But none of that matters does it, if you live in conspiracy theory land.

When we get a new Prime Minister they probably take him in a dark room show a clip of the Diana crash with two MI5 agents shooting the tires out and tell him "Do as we say or that could be you"

You are obviously a fully paid up member of the conspiracy crew and thus probably not worth taking seriously.

But I agree our democracy is far from perfect but it is the best system we know of.

Unless you know of a better one?

PS: Anarchy? Don't be nutty

Wheather or not America and Britain are fairly good places to live for the majority has no relevance to the fact that we invaded Iraq, why do you therefore link the two?

You are trying to say that because America and Britain are better places to live with more rights and freedoms than Iraq under Saddam that you are breaking some great taboo with with your brilliant insights into my blinkered misguided liberal fantasies.

In fact I can't be bothered to try and make sense of your pointless babble any longer.

 

[brucepig]

Why are they always so inarticulate, Fridge?

Can you please explain what kind of "they" I am?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Okay, here's a different tack: brucepig, you say you don't support US foreign policy. I take it that you don't consider yourself anti-American and that you're not just completely neutral on the matter, i.e. you oppose it to some degree. In what way are you are able to take this position without being anti-American? What are the differences between your reasons and the reasons expressed here and elsewhere?

edited to add: my slowness in hitting "post" has meant I missed the whole "vast Muslim conspiracy / you can't even say anything about Islamics these days" bit, but that won't end up being at all interesting, can't be arsed with all that again

 

[brucepig]

This all seems terribly confused. You say 'This thread is about how other liberals want to support these totalitarian movements just because of their opposition to the U.S and the kneejerk reactions you have to anyone who disagrees with the dogma that "it's all Americas fault"' but you've not provided any instances of this support existing, apart from the fact that people are opposed to the recent invasions and have the temerity to suggest that the West might not exactly have clean hands, which you seem to be saying must be because they are anti-American and pro-totalitarian (though apparently you "don't support American foreign policy").

To be fair I'm talking about verbal support which manifests itself in any debate where this subject arises. The Muslims are refered to as victims and any attempt to point out that they have as serious problem with genocidal violence, misogyny, homophobia and ignorance is responded to with the outrage usually reserved for those who spout racist obscenities.

It is just not the done thing to criticise Muslims or Islam no matter how sociopathic their behaviour but it is ok to excuse their behaviour as a legitimate reaction to Isreali oppression and American foreign policy.

So the support I'm talking about is the kind of support I encounter verbally when talking with people about this. It is not the support of arms and bodies but moral support all the same.

Other than that Left wing parties in France have created alliances with Islamist groups and over here we have the odious George Galloway and his Respect party.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ahh ok so we might as well let a murderous dictator rule because the corporations are in charge anyway. Democracy and freedom is just an illusion.

Have you ever been to Old Compton Street and noticed gays going about their day with no police to round them up and take them to prison, infact the police would protect them if people where attacking them but western society is terrible isn't it?

Have you noticed that the police don't shoot you dead when you hold a demonstration? But western society is just brutal isn't it?

Have you noticed that newspapers criticise Gordon Brown and he fears losing the next election. But none of that matters does it, if you live in conspiracy theory land.

When we get a new Prime Minister they probably take him in a dark room show a clip of the Diana crash with two MI5 agents shooting the tires out and tell him "Do as we say or that could be you"

You are obviously a fully paid up member of the conspiracy crew and thus probably not worth taking seriously.

But I agree our democracy is far from perfect but it is the best system we know of.

Unless you know of a better one?

PS: Anarchy? Don't be nutty

I think you're heading down an intellectual cul-de-sac here. You appear to be labouring under the assumption that opposition to the current system is equivalent to supporting 'dictators'. It is not.

You are obviously a fully paid up member of the conspiracy crew...

How so? You will need to explain how you arrived at this rather bizarre conclusion.

Have you noticed that newspapers criticise Gordon Brown and he fears losing the next election. But none of that matters does it, if you live in conspiracy theory land.

You've unwittingly hit upon something here: the role of the media in determining the outcome of elections. Understanding how the media operates with regards to its utility for political parties and how it serves to influence the outcome of elections is not engaging in a conspiracy theories; on the contrary, it demonstrates an understanding of current political practice.

But I agree our democracy is far from perfect but it is the best system we know of.

So rather than discuss the flaws and search for possible solutions it is easier to accept things as they are? There is no challenge in that and you may as well be dead for what it's worth.

PS: Anarchy? Don't be nutty

I'm not an anarchist.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont oppose america. Other countries are just as bad, russia being a good example - but what people find nauseating about Ameica is that it wraps up its motives in humanitarian concerns, whereas Russia and China don't even try to hide it. If someone posted a thread here saying "I hate Americans" they would get very short shrift here.

I agree that promoting democracy is a good idea ..... but what is happening in Iraq now is not democracy. What we see is total state collapse, war crimes committed on all sides, militias overtaking every aspect of life, rampant criminality ... breakaway regions in the North which have established some measure of stability and a functioning government only to be attacked by Turkey, America's ally.

Democracy? Dont make me fucking laugh. Of course promoting democracy is a good idea - but you don't acheive that by killing innocent people in the process and expecting them to be "grateful" when a system of government democratic only in name is foisted upon them.

 

[brucepig]

Wheather or not America and Britain are fairly good places to live for the majority has no relevance to the fact that we invaded Iraq, why do you therefore link the two?

You are trying to say that because America and Britain are better places to live with more rights and freedoms than Iraq under Saddam that you are breaking some great taboo with with your brilliant insights into my blinkered misguided liberal fantasies.

In fact I can't be bothered to try and make sense of your pointless babble any longer.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR.

OPEN YOUR EYES. I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR.

 

[nino_savatte]

"The White Man's Burden" re-drafted for today's globalised corporatist agenda.

Oh but it's all so egalitarian don't you know. Sign up with this lot and you can achieve freedom through the consumption of meaningless commodities.

 

[frogwoman]

I gather your definition of democracy is a Chomskyesque nightmare where a shady elite of oil men and arms dealers use the media to control credulous people like me into attacking innocent brown people thereby RULING THE WORLD HA HA HA HAHAHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I agree Muslims haven't had an empire since the end of the first world war but there is a movement of millions that would like to reverse that. If there where that many active neo nazis trying to revive the third reich would you not be worried? Or is it only the tyranny of Americans and Europeans you fear, do you think a reactionary Islamic force would be your friend?

Islamic terrorism is a big problem yeah. But mainly IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES where the terrorist scum get support as an alternative to their corrupt governments. Turkey and Egypt are good examples of this. There is no Eurabia, no secret plot to take over the world. It's a complete and utter lie.

 

[EddyBlack]

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR.

OPEN YOUR EYES. I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR.

Your posts are a swirling vortex of pointlessness and rubbish half baked arguments. You don't seem to have much grasp of anything. Which is why, I am glad to say, I give up.

 

[frogwoman]

It is just not the done thing to criticise Muslims or Islam no matter how sociopathic their behaviour but it is ok to excuse their behaviour as a legitimate reaction to Isreali oppression and American foreign policy.

It's not the done thing to criticise Jews or Judaism no matter how sociopathic their behaviour is but it is OK to excuse their behaviour as a legitimate reaction to anti-semitism and ursury laws ...

It's not the done thing to criticise blacks no matter how sociopathic their behaviour but it is ok to excuse their behaviour as a legitimate reaction to apartheid and colonialism ...

 

[brucepig]

I think you're heading down an intellectual cul-de-sac here. You appear to be labouring under the assumption that opposition to the current system is equivalent to supporting 'dictators'. It is not.



How so? You will need to explain how you arrived at this rather bizarre conclusion.



You've unwittingly hit upon something here: the role of the media in determining the outcome of elections. Understanding how the media operates with regards to its utility for political parties and how it serves to influence the outcome of elections is not engaging in a conspiracy theories; on the contrary, it demonstrates an understanding of current political practice.



So rather than discuss the flaws and search for possible solutions it is easier to accept things as they are? There is no challenge in that and you may as well be dead for what it's worth.



I'm not an anarchist.

Ok I apologise about calling you a conspiracy theory nut but it is obvious that you have some kind of cynical Chomskyesque view of the status quo.

As clever and engaging as Chomsky is he is a bit of a nutter that too many of us see as an amazingly insightful political guru.

He is insightful and allot of his ideas have a nugget of truth in them but to accept them lock stock and barrel puts us well into the realms of conspiracy theory lunacy.

As for discussing the pros and significant cons of democracy and searching for potential solutions I'm all for that and would glady discuss that with you but that was not what this thread is about.

This thread was about something completely different, now it's about people criticising me as some kind of neocon hawk and supporter of the Iraq war and me saying "I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR"

Kind of like the conversation I quouted in the original post. So rather than being a conversation about this kneejerk reaction I experienced I find myself experiencing a kneejerk reaction. Strange that.

Not one person has talked about the extreme venom I experienced when I dared to say what I said, all I have recieved is yet more criticism of American foreign policy of which I do not support and your partial debunking of democracy which does not contribute much to the original post.

Other than that my original post has been ignored.

 

[brucepig]

Your posts are a swirling vortex of pointlessness and rubbish half baked arguments. You don't seem to have much grasp of anything. Which is why, I am glad to say, I give up.

Good you did nothing but talk to yourself and fail to read what I wrote anyway. Off you pop.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont agree whith everything chomsky writes - Ive never read one of his books. So how can you say it's Chomsky thats responsible for the cynical view of the world?

we have very good reason to be cynical IMO.

 

[brucepig]

I dont oppose america. Other countries are just as bad, russia being a good example - but what people find nauseating about Ameica is that it wraps up its motives in humanitarian concerns, whereas Russia and China don't even try to hide it. If someone posted a thread here saying "I hate Americans" they would get very short shrift here.

I agree that promoting democracy is a good idea ..... but what is happening in Iraq now is not democracy. What we see is total state collapse, war crimes committed on all sides, militias overtaking every aspect of life, rampant criminality ... breakaway regions in the North which have established some measure of stability and a functioning government only to be attacked by Turkey, America's ally.

Democracy? Dont make me fucking laugh. Of course promoting democracy is a good idea - but you don't acheive that by killing innocent people in the process and expecting them to be "grateful" when a system of government democratic only in name is foisted upon them.

I agree with everything you say here but I don't support the Iraq war and it doesn't address my point about the reaction of my friends.

They didn't politely argue that totalitarian theocracy was only supported by a minority they came at me full force in a unison of heavy condemnation.

Muslims are victims, America are the problem and I am a wicked supporter of an illegal war, torture and racism and as such I should be ashamed of myself.

This is the reaction I'm talking about. a kneejerk vicious response which shouts down even other liberals if they criticise Islam or try to say it's not all Americas fault.

 

[brucepig]

I dont agree whith everything chomsky writes - Ive never read one of his books. So how can you say it's Chomsky thats responsible for the cynical view of the world?

we have very good reason to be cynical IMO.

I didn't say Chomsky was "responsible for the cynical view of the world".

I did say too many of us take his theories too seriously and I did say to swallow Chomsky's theories whole puts us well into the realm of the conspiracy theory.

Yes we have very good reasons to be cynical but too many of us let our cynicism take over. "It's all a lie, democracy is a mirage, we are ruled by the evil corporations" etc

We need to have some perspective stop being so hysterical and try to change the system not assume it's broken and reject it.

 

[Brainaddict]

brucepig, to understand people's objections to america's 'idealistic' interventions you just need to study the history of their 'idealistic' interventions since the second world war - the supposed idealism of which have almost universally been a cover for greed, irrational hatred, power-grabs and so on. They have also had an almost overwhelmingly negative effect on world politics and on the people who got in the way. People saw no reason to think Iraq would be any different, and see no reason to think the next war they enter will be any different either.

So read some history, and you'll get it.

 

[brucepig]

PS: In this conversation with my friends I realised how bad this culture of conspiracy and hatred of the west had gone. They all said that science was just as bad as fundamentalist religion, that doctors and western medicine was not to be trusted. That most western medicine didn't work or was pushed on to us by doctors who didn't want to help us but wanted to sell more drugs for the evil pharmacuitical companies. They all agreed that I was mad to think that science was about genuine enquiry and that wastern medicine was a fantastic thing. Respect for devisive religion rejection of democracy, western civilisation and a retreat into homeopathy for all our ailments seem to be the future they are looking too.

Am I so wrong to think this is nuts?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can you please explain what kind of "they" I am?

From the evidence of your posts, you're an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" type of "they", brucie.

 

[brucepig]

brucepig, to understand people's objections to america's 'idealistic' interventions you just need to study the history of their 'idealistic' interventions since the second world war - the supposed idealism of which have almost universally been a cover for greed, irrational hatred, power-grabs and so on. They have also had an almost overwhelmingly negative effect on world politics and on the people who got in the way. People saw no reason to think Iraq would be any different, and see no reason to think the next war they enter will be any different either.

So read some history, and you'll get it.

I know all of this and agree with it. I do not support American foreign policy. I have read loads of history but it seems you haven't read my posts properly. But thankyou for your considered reply It felt far less agressive than most of the other replies I have recieved. Thankyou

 

[ViolentPanda]

Proper paragraphs and decent grammar, though.

True. Far more easy to read than the single paragraph unpunctuated "stream of consciousness" babble some posters go for.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

PS: In this conversation with my friends I realised how bad this culture of conspiracy and hatred of the west had gone. They all said that science was just as bad as fundamentalist religion, that doctors and western medicine was not to be trusted. That most western medicine didn't work or was pushed on to us by doctors who didn't want to help us but wanted to sell more drugs for the evil pharmacuitical companies. They all agreed that I was mad to think that science was about genuine enquiry and that wastern medicine was a fantastic thing. Respect for devisive religion rejection of democracy, western civilisation and a retreat into homeopathy for all our ailments seem to be the future they are looking too.

Am I so wrong to think this is nuts?

To be quite frank this is not a support group for people who have arguments with their friends. None of us know your friends or attend the arguments that you have had with them (I assume, anyway). "My friends said this" is not a terribly good starting point for making sweeping statements about "liberals", Chomsky etc etc.

 

[brucepig]

From the evidence of your posts, you're an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" type of "they", brucie.

Umm how do you work that out. I agree with most of your views, I oppose the Iraq war, I realise there are lots of problems with democracy and capitalism but I also oppose assertive Islamic totalitarian movements.

So the only question is why is that such a no no for all of you. It is such a no no that you seem to forget I agree with you all on everything else and accuse me of thinking I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

Also if I'm the only person here saying something and all of you oppose it it doesn't make you right does it.

 

[brucepig]

True. Far more easy to read than the single paragraph unpunctuated "stream of consciousness" babble some posters go for.

I know you probably see this as a nice little jibe against the "neocon" but I really apreciate it as I have struggled with dyslexia all of my life and really worked hard to improve my grammar, punctuation and spelling. So thankyou ViolentPanda from the bottom of my shrivled, racist neoconservative coal I call a heart LOL

 

[nino_savatte]

Ok I apologise about calling you a conspiracy theory nut but it is obvious that you have some kind of cynical Chomskyesque view of the status quo.

As clever and engaging as Chomsky is he is a bit of a nutter that too many of us see as an amazingly insightful political guru.

Christ, is it really that black and white for you? Are you suggesting that I'm some sort of Chomsky worshipper? I can think for myself, thanks and while Chomsky is a good writer, I don't hang on his every word. Is that sooooo hard to believe?

He is insightful and allot of his ideas have a nugget of truth in them but to accept them lock stock and barrel puts us well into the realms of conspiracy theory lunacy.

Whatever.

As for discussing the pros and significant cons of democracy and searching for potential solutions I'm all for that and would glady discuss that with you but that was not what this thread is about.

No, it seems to be about the merits of latter-day of Palmerstonian gunboat diplomacy that has been given a new 'meaning'.

This thread was about something completely different, now it's about people criticising me as some kind of neocon hawk and supporter of the Iraq war and me saying "I DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR"

Did I call you a "neo con"? I don't think I did.

Kind of like the conversation I quouted in the original post. So rather than being a conversation about this kneejerk reaction I experienced I find myself experiencing a kneejerk reaction. Strange that.

Hein?

Not one person has talked about the extreme venom I experienced when I dared to say what I said, all I have recieved is yet more criticism of American foreign policy of which I do not support and your partial debunking of democracy which does not contribute much to the original post.

Other than that my original post has been ignored.

You've lost me now.

 

[brucepig]

To be quite frank this is not a support group for people who have arguments with their friends. None of us know your friends or attend the arguments that you have had with them (I assume, anyway). "My friends said this" is not a terribly good starting point for making sweeping statements about "liberals", Chomsky etc etc.

I wasn't aware that my statement about Chomsky's wild theories was related to my conversation with my friends. To be fair my sweeping statement about liberals (of which I'm one I just don't fit the stereotype ) has been backed up by all of your responses.