The Deer Hunter, over rated shit or WTF?
- Thread starter revol68
- Start date
revol68
what, fucking what?
you haven't a clue about class because I'm a mouthy little gnome?
life tip; read a fucking book.
yeah great answer. i'm not going to engage cos i'm too clever.
you started the abuse saying i'm an idiot then i give you some back and your comeback is 'read some propaganda then you'll understand'
it's an opinion based on experience. i find the position on here of treating the working class as some sort of 'blessed are the meek' thing pathetic and for all this posturing and shit it really isn't a wonder that even complete fucking idiots like the BNP do better than any working class based organisation based on the opinions on here
you started the abuse saying i'm an idiot then i give you some back and your comeback is 'read some propaganda then you'll understand'
it's an opinion based on experience. i find the position on here of treating the working class as some sort of 'blessed are the meek' thing pathetic and for all this posturing and shit it really isn't a wonder that even complete fucking idiots like the BNP do better than any working class based organisation based on the opinions on here
revol68
what, fucking what?
Well I agree with you except your post above about chinese workers suggests you think of the working class as a category of moral suffering, with those in the shittist conditions being the 'real' working class against the pampered western working class.
The fact that in your experience you have been unable to come to some sort of useful or adequate understanding of class doesn't make class bullshit, it means you need to expand your knowledge, I'd suggest reading some decent stuff on class, best to start with Marx.
revol68
what, fucking what?
you need to read what i said again and maybe think why i said that. i wasn't saying what you just said i said i was saying something else
if i keep arguing with you in this vein it will go on for hours and will be pointless. especially in relation to your interpretation of 'The Deer Hunter'
I have to go and do stuff, but if you want to carry on with this argument I would suggest that you reread my posts a couple of times and try to think what they could mean rather than just calling me stupid and telling me to read Marx lol
I saw it years ago and thought it was OK but a bit tedious.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Not great at having his pov critiqued, is he.
revol - it's not the end of the world. You're not going to have a better grasp than everyone of everything all the time, and certainly not in relation to this film.
Aside from the macho flexing, a good discussion.
what else is a good read
i read the manifesto and the book about revolutions and maybe its cos it's of it's time but it didn't really inspire me (his focus on the physical needs of the working class coming to a point where capitalism was unable to provide the 'payoff' seems a bit incongruous with the british definition of working class which is more about self image etc
maybe you could reccomend some more contemporary books about class in general?
revol68
what, fucking what?
Eh the problem isn't not getting the film, the problem is there is very little to get from it, I mean once you take away the racism and patriotic apologism all you are left with is a self indulgent 3 hour fable that "War is brutal m'kay", there's nothing there that you wouldn't get from a shitty TV movie on Living, well other than De Niro and Walken.
Perhaps you will get round to counter the points I made about it being self pitying, overly sentimental, racist apologist tripe. I mean what sort of film wanting to depict the brutality/reality of war and it's impact on the psyche of the young men caught up in it and the repercussions this had back home would base itself on totally made up shit about forced games of Russian Roulette? Isn't the reliance on this fictional device not actually a total cop out from the real brutality of the war and the actual experiences of young soldiers?
Michael Cimino the director, is also one who was never shy of silly pretention & spoon blunt symbolism.
DH was actually pretty much his only coherent movie & he pissed it's success up the wall quite spectacuarly with Heavan's Gate.
I heard someone once discibe him as the M. Night Shyamalan of his generation
DH was actually pretty much his only coherent movie & he pissed it's success up the wall quite spectacuarly with Heavan's Gate.
I heard someone once discibe him as the M. Night Shyamalan of his generation
which 'shitty' TV movies would you reccomend which show the brutality of war?
i know it's a bit sentimental etc but i do like those movies which show the brutality of war and people pulling together etc when they are well done
which ones would you reccomend?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
I watched it when I was about 16 and thought it was tedious, overlong, senitmental, liberal-partiotic dross and couldn't understand why it had been so it highly praised.
Agree that the US has yet to produce a film which honestly depicts the war for what it was - a genoicdal act of imperial hubris.
Denied of a feel good angle, the hollywood focus is always on the damage it did to the US - in partiuclar the young men who fought the war.
The damage it did to the people of Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos - millions dead, social/political turmoil leading to monsters like Pol Pot, unfathmonable environmental damage, utterly ruined countries - is barely touched upon. Rather the Vietamese are faceless, nameless savages who are either isolated objects of pity to be saved by our brave heroes (like the famous napalmed girl) or fanatical barbarians who drag our blue eyed boys down to their level.
you can see the same discourse being played out with regards to the current act of genocidal hubris being played out in Iraq.
Class - essentially society is divided into a small number of people who have a great deal of wealth, status and power, a large group who have very little and a medium sized group inbetween. Those crazy Marxists would argue that society is organsied and run primarily for the benefit of the first group at the expense of the second. Sorry if thats too complicated.
Agree that the US has yet to produce a film which honestly depicts the war for what it was - a genoicdal act of imperial hubris.
Denied of a feel good angle, the hollywood focus is always on the damage it did to the US - in partiuclar the young men who fought the war.
The damage it did to the people of Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos - millions dead, social/political turmoil leading to monsters like Pol Pot, unfathmonable environmental damage, utterly ruined countries - is barely touched upon. Rather the Vietamese are faceless, nameless savages who are either isolated objects of pity to be saved by our brave heroes (like the famous napalmed girl) or fanatical barbarians who drag our blue eyed boys down to their level.
you can see the same discourse being played out with regards to the current act of genocidal hubris being played out in Iraq.
Class - essentially society is divided into a small number of people who have a great deal of wealth, status and power, a large group who have very little and a medium sized group inbetween. Those crazy Marxists would argue that society is organsied and run primarily for the benefit of the first group at the expense of the second. Sorry if thats too complicated.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
'Battle of Algiers' - probably the best war film ever made.
revol68
what, fucking what?
funny I couldn't name any off the top of my head, possibly because they are inane shite. But seriously are you trying to suggest that Deer Hunter is unique in saying war is brutal?
I wouldn't say it "shows the brutality of war" at all, it shows fictionalised bullshit as a means of avoiding actually addressing the real brutality of what was going on in Vietnam, like JC2 said Hollywood wasn't ready for such home truths.
It really is a hideous piece of shit the more I think about it, not only a bloated pile of sentimental tripe but an ethically and politically repugnant and dishonest one that allowed for some pseudo cathartic wailing about the 'brutality of war'.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I can't really as I haven’t seen it for more than 10-15 years but I remember – as a younger man – not being overwhelmed with events in Vietnam; back then that aspect felt clumsy and clunky.
I do recall very much enjoying the portrayal of the small town mentality and community in the industrialised north which seemed very well observed. Even now that resonates, for me, in the emerging coffin returning culture in the UK: They don’t know what they’ve fighting for except for some blurry and externally imposed concepts of ‘right’ and serving the country. We can see that impact on UK wives and families on the news almost every evening now.
I recall feeling many references to the Crusades, but that was probably because I was interested in the Crusades back then. I suppose the same motifs and propaganda are applicable throughout history.
Anyway, it might be interesting to revisit it again. Fwiw, the portrayal of community has actually remained with me in some detail.
Perhaps a film of two halves - back to the studio and Gary.
that is a great film
i wouldn't put derr hunter up there with that, i was just saying that i thought it was good and i thought it communicated war fucking people up pretty well. specially robert de niro's performance
paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
When it came out, it was stunning (at the time) albeit overlong.. if I recall, a lot of the hype for teenage boys was based simply on the, for the time, shocking Russian Roulette scenes.
No sillier than Apocalypse Now (or the Making of Apocalypse Now now I think of it).
Try the Kubrick Paths of Glory with Kirk Douglas or rather than watching cinematic portrayals, watch some docs.. I think things like the World at War should be shown in schools..
No sillier than Apocalypse Now (or the Making of Apocalypse Now now I think of it).
Try the Kubrick Paths of Glory with Kirk Douglas or rather than watching cinematic portrayals, watch some docs.. I think things like the World at War should be shown in schools..
revol68
what, fucking what?
Yeah it does a good job of showing how witnessing Viet Cong troops blowing up trapped villagers and then being taken captive and forced to play Russian Roulette will seriously fuck you up, unfortunately these things have very little to do with the reality of the Vietnam war or the trauma of returning soldiers, many of whom would have been involved in the slaughter of civilians and the razing of villages.
Yeah it does a good job of showing how witnessing Viet Cong troops blowing up trapped villagers and then being taken captive and forced to play Russian Roulette will seriously fuck you up, unfortunately these things have very little to do with the reality of the Vietnam war or the trauma of returning soldiers, many of whom would have been involved in the slaughter of civilians and the razing of villages.
it's not the specifics. it's more just the idea of a bunch of unimaginable stuff happening to a bunch of really normal lads
the things that happen in the film may or may not have happened, that isn't the point
revol68
what, fucking what?
They didn't happen, there was never any documented cases of it reported. Like I said it's made up self pitying shit that makes the good old American boys the main victims of the war and totally misrepresents the traumatic and brutalising things they did or experienced. Hollywood sucked the cock off The Deer Hunter because it allowed them to be vaguely anti war without coming to terms with the real role America played in it and the actions of it's troops.
How would a German movie about the 2nd World War go down that 'portrays the brutality of war' by inventing fictional circumstances in which Jewish partisans are blowing up Warsaw gentiles and a group of Waffen SS troops get caught whilst avenging this act of Jewish brutality and then are shown to be brutalised by a bunch of sadistic Jews?
Would people defend it on the grounds that it is simply trying to show the brutality of war on the basis of what 'unimaginable things' could happen to a bunch of really normal lads?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It is total rubbish
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I never made it past the neverending wedding scene. Totally TL;DW
