Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The death of Humanism

Meanwhile in the real world, Danny and his revolutionary mates read their David Harvey and go on their protest marches and make their nice banners and stand in the freezing cold flogging their newspapers and rent draughty rooms about pubs where they argue about Kronstadt with Ken, Wolfie and their ten equally deranged "comrades."
I'm sorry, but that doesn't describe my political activity.

But your project, tell me, do the Christian right buy this idea that Satan isn't to be taken literally, but is a metaphor for post modernity?
 
Humanists believe that the autonomous individual subject is the basis of experience. This belief went out of fashion during the 60's, with Althusser, Kristeva, Lyotard and the postmodernists in general, who argued that the individual subject is merely a by-product of language. My own view is that postmodernism is the ideology of late capitalism, which is rather effectively destroying the subject by a systematic combination of wage-labor and consumerism, so that people learn to see themselves as artificial. I'm sure we all know people who defines themselves by their clothes, possessions, image and so forth. I believe this to be the work of Satan, and therefore evil, but undeniably effective. It is also prophicized as the herald of the Apocalypse.

But don't you also believe that the nature of truth changes throughout history? That is you could say that you have learnt to define the nature of truth by your historical clothes. You could say that what you - the autonomous subject - knows to be true is artificial.

Are you Satan? :hmm:
 
Where Phil's right is that humanism amounts to moralistic balderdash much the same as any religion. The existence of Satan or God or any other paternalistic supernatural figure is completely irrelevant.

I hope it dies. Horribly.
 
Where Phil's right is that humanism amounts to moralistic balderdash much the same as any religion. The existence of Satan or God or any other paternalistic supernatural figure is completely irrelevant.

I hope it dies. Horribly.

in my OP i opined that the horrific acts taken by people educated and exposed to 'high' art and literature exposed the lie that such education and exposure to art was somehow a socially improving thing. I've seen no convincing arguments to the contrary
 
in my OP i opined that the horrific acts taken by people educated and exposed to 'high' art and literature exposed the lie that such education and exposure to art was somehow a socially improving thing. I've seen no convincing arguments to the contrary

To be honest I think there might be something in that. High art does not necessarily espouse good social values. It might help people to be vile in a more sophisticated manner.

The problem with humanists is that they see conflicts as things to be resolved rather than brought to a head, which is why they tend to think that liberal education is the solution to everything.
 
None of this "criticism of Humanism" is even minimally correct, let alone true... Just blabbering wildly...:rolleyes:
 
None of this "criticism of Humanism" is even minimally correct, let alone true... Just blabbering wildly...:rolleyes:

As if humanism were one particular thing!

Of course there is much of value in humanism. Like anything else. The recognition of human dignity, of culture etc. It still amounts to nothing but crap, like all religion.
 
Say two high priests of the crap mind...:rolleyes::p:D

Butchers (and Jonti at other times and probably others as well) are right though. Your whole mindset is that of the sect member. Its weird that your sect is academic rather than religious or political, but 'sectarian personality' seems to sum you up perfectly. Inward looking, defensive yet argumentative, the way you carry approved literature around with you, the curious demonology with respect to certain ideas. It makes me wonder what's wrong with the Praxis Group considering that it produced you.
 
I can't read gorski tho, the smilie laden abstract sentances make no sense to me.:(

The reason he does it is straightforward. He's learnt that he can't preach to us so he just doesn't give a damn about whether we understand him or not. Why should he make himself understood when he doesn't gain anything from it? (Another extreme example of sectish selfish behaviour)

He's not all bad though. He's actually quite informed about some stuff, and there's no trace of pedantry in what he says. I like the way he's inprecise. Its much better to get on and use ambiguous words and discover the meaning than it is to try and capture them in a definition. On that score he's worth the effort.
 
Nothing could be further from the truth, K. That is exactly the kind of mindset I fought against my whole life.

But that [your alleged anti-sectarianism] won't save you from having to go through some serious studying in order to be free from your present limitations - and let's be honest: you're really muddled when it comes to these issues...

And so is our beloved Puritan Butch, who is also extremely sectarian, inasmuch as he and his pals alone hold the sacred truth about anything and everything, regardless of his/their limitations... And let's face it, he pisses down from on high onto everybody who doesn't hold exactly the same views as himself and he has the audacity to tell me anything at all on the subject...:rolleyes: What joy!!!!:p:D

DotC: there's only 5 one can use in a post, so... :rolleyes:
 
DotC: there's only 5 one can use in a post, so... :rolleyes:

yeah but the words in between make no sense to me. Condescend and write so I can understand man, otherwise I am just bewildered by posts that might contain some good food for thought
 
But that [your alleged anti-sectarianism] won't save you from having to go through some serious studying in order to be free from your present limitations - and let's be honest: you're really muddled when it comes to these issues...

OK then, what am I to study?

I don't doubt that I'm muddled when it comes to certain issues, but really you want me to be muddled in the same way you are muddled rather than unmuddled. You want me to be learning what you learnt and (mis)understand it the the way that you do. You want group think. That's why you think your sectarianism is anti-sectarianism you want inclusion rather than exclusion, but you never did understand the dialectic.
 
Misunderstanding, K.!

There are many possible answers to questions, including those we haven't conceived of yet. They depend on many conditions, ergo answers other than mine are legitimate [this is unlike Butch's credo].

What I object to is that atrocious attitude by which anybody's is a great expert, absolutely certain of his "knowledge", provided one has read a few books...

Much of what Butch says is obviously self-aggrandisement induced half-baked stuff, who is seriously self-deluded, when it comes to any serious in-depth knowledge about anything.

Much as I admire his need and drive to educate himself and much as I would commend him to anybody doubting s/he can do it, like he did, obviously, read a lot - I would also have to warn them of the pitfalls of un-systematic mode of study...

We are limited, in a variety of ways, from languages we speak, to our experiences, our previous education, schools of thought we belong to, our own intellectual limitations, our leanings/interests and so on.

When you read what Butch and his ilk are writing, it is obvious that he has no doubts he is the greatest mind on Earth and his attitude is that he has nothing to learn from anybody. He asks no Qs, he only gives answers with absoluteness about them, regardless of the area debated...

What steady, structured, systematic and serious study does to one [with any sense] is that it teaches one some humility: as you study more and as you get to know more it gives you an idea of just how much you don't know...

Not so with Butch, regardless of just how patchy and full of holes his "knowledge" is, as I have seen many times!

But he is a part of an atmosphere in the UK that generally doesn't really hold intellectuals in high regard and people like him would rather drag everybody down, as that is much easier than the other way round...

Make of it what you will, but when I was coaching in this country and volunteering in schools [and so on, this forum included] - the general atmosphere is really bad - by comparison to the Continent, where most people aspire to at least become "bourgeois", as in "educated" and transcend their present limitations via some heavy intellectual effort. In the Anglo-American world I see very little respect for that which is the most difficult thing on Earth. And he is just echoing the general "feeling", which I abhor!

Being critical is one thing but what he and his ilk are doing has nothing to do with that... :( Imagining things is one thing but showing real potential for change within the merely exiting, through its own contradictions, is quite another thing altogether and he and his lot just aren't doing it!!

Humanism, in this context, would first need to be properly described/understood and then - and that would be SOME task - overcome in a critical effort, by an immanent critique, not just spat at, in such a silly and disrespectful manner.

I suspect we are very far away from that. I suspect Butch and his lot are very far away from that level of cognitive ability/intellectual competence or at the very least informed-ness which would [MAYBE] qualify them for such a short-hand, short-cut [meaning: without any serious proof] dismissiv-ness of the most arrogant kind...

Methodologically speaking, one can only try to do something like that if one has some serious godly characteristics... But such a serious requirement for out-of-hand dismissiveness will never stop Butch and his ilk, sadly....:(
 
There are many possible answers to questions, including those we haven't conceived of yet. They depend on many conditions, ergo answers other than mine are legitimate [this is unlike Butch's credo].

What I object to is that atrocious attitude by which anybody's is a great expert, absolutely certain of his "knowledge", provided one has read a few books...

Much of what Butch says is obviously self-aggrandisement induced half-baked stuff, who is seriously self-deluded, when it comes to any serious in-depth knowledge about anything.

Much as I admire his need and drive to educate himself and much as I would commend him to anybody doubting s/he can do it, like he did, obviously, read a lot - I would also have to warn them of the pitfalls of un-systematic mode of study...

We are limited, in a variety of ways, from languages we speak, to our experiences, our previous education, schools of thought we belong to, our own intellectual limitations, our leanings/interests and so on.

When you read what Butch and his ilk are writing, it is obvious that he has no doubts he is the greatest mind on Earth and his attitude is that he has nothing to learn from anybody. He asks no Qs, he only gives answers with absoluteness about them, regardless of the area debated...

What steady, structured, systematic and serious study does to one [with any sense] is that it teaches one some humility: as you study more and as you get to know more it gives you an idea of just how much you don't know...

Not so with Butch, regardless of just how patchy and full of holes his "knowledge" is, as I have seen many times!

But he is a part of an atmosphere in the UK that generally doesn't really hold intellectuals in high regard and people like him would rather drag everybody down, as that is much easier than the other way round...

Make of it what you will, but when I was coaching in this country and volunteering in schools [and so on, this forum included] - the general atmosphere is really bad - by comparison to the Continent, where most people aspire to at least become "bourgeois", as in "educated" and transcend their present limitations via some heavy intellectual effort. In the Anglo-American world I see very little respect for that which is the most difficult thing on Earth. And he is just echoing the general "feeling", which I abhor!

Being critical is one thing but what he and his ilk are doing has nothing to do with that... :( Imagining things is one thing but showing real potential for change within the merely exiting, through its own contradictions, is quite another thing altogether and he and his lot just aren't doing it!!

Humanism, in this context, would first need to be properly described/understood and then - and that would be SOME task - overcome in a critical effort, by an immanent critique, not just spat at, in such a silly and disrespectful manner.

I suspect we are very far away from that. I suspect Butch and his lot are very far away from that level of cognitive ability/intellectual competence or at the very least informed-ness which would [MAYBE] qualify them for such a short-hand, short-cut [meaning: without any serious proof] dismissiv-ness of the most arrogant kind...

Methodologically speaking, one can only try to do something like that if one has some serious godly characteristics... But such a serious requirement for out-of-hand dismissiveness will never stop Butch and his ilk, sadly....:(

Who are you working for?
 
G & BA are both deeply 'sectarian' - and spend lots of time arguing about the view out of a window from the same room!

FWIW - for me humanism is simply attempting to live a good life without recourse to fear of a deity, worrying about an afterlife/reincarnation and no long term philosophical/spiritual goal (e.g. Buddhist 'enlightenment') other than those you set for yourself; self-defined ethics, non-theist, living life in a way that enhances both your own and other's lives. If 'high' culture helps you get there (and I think it can) then great, if you can get there exclusively via pop-culture, then that's good to.
 
Where Phil's right is that humanism amounts to moralistic balderdash much the same as any religion. The existence of Satan or God or any other paternalistic supernatural figure is completely irrelevant.

I hope it dies. Horribly.
It doesn't really help that there already several definitions and useages of the word on this thread, so there is going to be confusion about just what it is you are wishing death to.

in my OP i opined that the horrific acts taken by people educated and exposed to 'high' art and literature exposed the lie that such education and exposure to art was somehow a socially improving thing. I've seen no convincing arguments to the contrary
I still have a fondness for the WEA ethos: that learning is vital to the health of society, and that communities can self-organise to facilitate learning. I was particularly impressed by what I saw as the strength of the WEA - its structure. It had a voluntary wing as well as the "professional" wing. So that local groups would decide themselves what they wanted to learn, and then use the paid tutors to facilitate that learning.

One of the things I really valued was that members would come to me and say "we want to start a local history group" and it was my job to get them off the ground, help them gather the necessary tools and so on.

In my view, this absolutely helped build and maintain a healthy community. It's not so much the topics as the process. So whether it's art history or elementary car mechanics doesn't really matter in that sense.
 
That's a different use of the word. And it's one reason I'm not that happy with the use of the term to mean secularism.

The use DotCom refers to is a long established use, and is often paired with "liberal" in the term: Liberal Humanism. Not a very helpful pairing of two un-useful words. But it is a strand of thought that runs through adult education movements such as the WEA, for whom I worked for years. That is, the general belief that it is somehow improving to society if more people know about art and literature, that if miners know their Beethoven and their Dickens, democracy is the better for it.

This runs hand-in-hand with a fin de sicle version of rationalism, a modernism that would have been familiar to Betrand Russell and the Fabians. Which is presumably why DotCom brings in Einstein and Eddison.

It does tend to be a top-down kind of knowledge base. This is something "we" (eg Fabians, university extra mural departments and so on) need to impart to the lower orders. It sat well, though, with the self-taught worker, like my granddad, who seemed always to be striving to know what was known by the best-read grammar school boy. In doing so, I'll bet he was better read than most of them, though he'd never have believed that.

It is, for that reason, and for all its faults, not a philosophy I can altogether reject.

I'd never heard of Humanism defined as being about teaching the Classics to everyone, sounds flabby and arbituary to me.

I'd thought Humanism meant this:

Humanism is an approach to life based on humanity and reason - humanists recognise that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone. Our decisions are based on the available evidence and our assessment of the outcomes of our actions, not on any dogma or sacred text.
 
I'd never heard of Humanism defined as being about teaching the Classics to everyone, sounds flabby and arbituary to me.

I'd thought Humanism meant this:



as well.


it's a long standing idea apparently, but not as crude as you have described it. Not 'teaching the Classics to everyone' rather a belief that education and exposure to art is a socially improving force, and something that can unite the various social strata.

no, I don't buy it either
 
Much as I admire his need and drive to educate himself and much as I would commend him to anybody doubting s/he can do it, like he did, obviously, read a lot - I would also have to warn them of the pitfalls of un-systematic mode of study...

But what are the ptifalls? I simply don't agree with you here. For me systematic study has more pitfalls. In that:
You learn not what's important but what you are being examined on.
You learn about the subject in a way that pleases your tutors ie. you end up replicating your tutors' limitations.
You don't learn to make interdiscplinary connections.
You end up with a narrow specialist focus.
You don't learn how to learn, in particular you don't learn how to pick up the gist of something.

One of the most valuable skills you can have is to get an idea of something from a difficult text that you don't understand properly. Its the ability to see which bits are crucial and which bits you don't need to fuss about unless you need to understand it exactly.

Humanism, in this context, would first need to be properly described/understood and then - and that would be SOME task - overcome in a critical effort, by an immanent critique, not just spat at, in such a silly and disrespectful manner.

I disagree. The one thing I like about your posts and Phil Dwyer's posts is that they are usually silly and disrespectful critiques. I can see where you are coming from much quicker because of this.
 
It doesn't really help that there already several definitions and useages of the word on this thread, so there is going to be confusion about just what it is you are wishing death to.

I heartily approve of what the WEA are doing, and I think that learning is vital to the health of the working class (though its not a panacea). I don't think you need humanist ideology to do that though. By that I mean I don't think its necessary to have perscriptive moral values. Perhaps I favour just a rough humanist orientation rather than a well defined humanist ideology. I think its important to recognise that we live in a divisive society and that what's good for 'society' is not necessarily good for the majority of us.
 
No, K: the pitfalls of patchy study are obvious.:rolleyes:

It is also obvious that most "critiques" on this forum are disrespectful, as superficial, never going into any serious depth, hence empty posturing...

So, I learnt to deal with them in the similar manner...:rolleyes:

Btw, I am not working:hmm: - unemployed, ta very much...:(
 
No, K: the pitfalls of patchy study are obvious.:rolleyes:

All study is patchy - you never study everything. I don't think there is anything in particular about systematic study that allows you to gauge how much or little you know. Quite the reverse in my experience - you can't see the wood for the trees.
 
Let's be brutally honest:

none of the "critically minded" people [re. Humanism, that is] on this thread are anywhere remotely near to contributing to the history of ideas, philosophy or anything even remotely close to Humanism...

End of!!!!
 
if Humanism is a school of thought that says society can be glued in place and grounded by great works of art and literature, surely the actions of a ruling elite raised on Goethe and Schiller prove this ideal wrong.

How does it prove it wrong? You just have to pick other great works of art besides Goethe and Schiller.
 
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, Monospace]http://eserver.org/philosophy/kant/what-is-enlightenment.txt[/FONT]

IMMANUEL KANT
An Answer to the Question: "What is Enlightenment?"

Konigsberg in Prussia, 30th September, 1784.

Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity. Immaturity
is the inability to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another.
This immaturity is self-incurred if its cause is not lack of understanding, but
lack of resolution and courage to use it without the guidance of another. The
motto of enlightenment is therefore: Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own
understanding!

Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why such a large proportion of men, even
when nature has long emancipated them from alien guidance (naturaliter
maiorennes), nevertheless gladly remain immature for life. For the same
reasons, it is all too easy for others to set themselves up as their guardians.
It is so convenient to be immature! If I have a book to have understanding in
place of me, a spiritual adviser to have a conscience for me, a doctor to judge
my diet for me, and so on, I need not make any efforts at all. I need not think,
so long as I can pay; others will soon enough take the tiresome job over for me.
The guardians who have kindly taken upon themselves the work of supervision will
soon see to it that by far the largest part of mankind (including the entire
fair sex) should consider the step forward to maturity not only as difficult but
also as highly dangerous. Having first infatuated their domesticated animals,
and carefully prevented the docile creatures from daring to take a single step
without the leading-strings to which they are tied, they next show them the
danger which threatens them if they try to walk unaided. Now this danger is not
in fact so very great, for they would certainly learn to walk eventually after a
few falls. But an example of this kind is intimidating, and usually frightens
them off from further attempts.

Thus it is difficult for each separate individual to work his way out of the
immaturity which has become almost second nature to him. He has even grown fond
of it and is really incapable for the time being of using his own understanding,
because he was never allowed to make the attempt. Dogmas and formulas, those
mechanical instruments for rational use (or rather misuse) of his natural
endowments, are the ball and chain of his permanent immaturity. And if anyone
did throw them off, he would still be uncertain about jumping over even the
narrowest of trenches, for he would be unaccustomed to free movement of this
kind. Thus only a few, by cultivating the;r own minds, have succeeded in freeing
themselves from immaturity and in continuing boldly on their way.

There is more chance of an entire public enlightening itself. This is indeed
almost inevitable, if only the public concerned is left in freedom. For there
will always be a few who think for themselves, even among those appointed as
guardians of the common mass. Such guardians, once they have themselves thrown
off the yoke of immaturity, will disseminate the spirit of rational respect for
personal value and for the duty of all men to think for themselves. The
remarkable thing about this is that if the public, which was previously put
under this yoke by the guardians, is suitably stirred up by some of the latter
who are incapable of enlightenment, it may subsequently compel the guardians
themselves to remain under the yoke. For it is very harmful to propagate
prejudices, because they finally avenge themselves on the very people who first
encouraged them (or whose predecessors did so). Thus a public can only achieve
enlightenment slowly. A revolution may well put an end to autocratic despotism
and to rapacious or power-seeking oppression, but it will never produce a true
reform in ways of thinking. Instead, new prejudices, like the ones they
replaced, will serve as a leash to control the great unthinking mass.

For enlightenment of this kind, all that is needed is freedom. And the freedom
in question is the most innocuous form of allÑfreedom to make public use of
one's reason in all matters. But I hear on all sides the cry: Don't argue! The
officer says: Don't argue, get on parade! The tax-official: Don't argue, pay!
The clergyman: Don't argue, believe! (Only one ruler in the world says: Argue as
much as you like and about whatever you like, but obey!). . All this means
restrictions on freedom everywhere. But which sort of restriction prevents
enlightenment, and which, instead of hindering it, can actually promote it ? I
reply: The public use of man's reason must always be free, and it alone can
bring about enlightenment among men; the private use of reason may quite often
be very narrowly restricted, however, without undue hindrance to the progress of
enlightenment. But by the public use of one's own reason I mean that use which
anyone may make of it as a man of learning addressing the entire reading public.
What I term the private use of reason is that which a person may make of it in a
particular civil post or office with which he is entrusted.

One must see it historically in order to understand the
importance and greatness of this effort!!! Against the backdrop
of serious domination, exploitation, elitism and the so called
"natural order of things", stemming first from Feudalism and then
the nasty early phases of Capitalism some come up with an
emancipatory set of ideas, say from Italy to France and Germany...

Say, from Machiavelli and Bruno to Descartes and onwards, culminating
in the Kant-Hegel developments in Philosophy, Haydn, Mozart,
Beethoven etc. in music, Schiller and Goethe in literature and
onwards with Marx in Philosophy and critique of political economy
etc. etc. What a dense time, what a glorious time, with two major
revolutions aimed at all, not just the French or the Americans and
then another one in very difficult circumstances in Russia, even
though it was betrayed and its potential squandered...

Now, for some to come in prancing about with this idiotic idea
that none of that makes any difference in development of
Humanity, in Humanity's liberation - is just laughable!!!

If one would take these ideas away from our History all one would
get is a pile of rubble and very little in terms of civilisation
and culture.

So, shoo, ye vultures, go find somewhere else to prance about and
make yourselves a tad bigger than your minuscule selves...:rolleyes:
 
Back
Top Bottom