The dead teenagers returning from Afghanistan

[butchersapron]

You clearly didn't grow up round some of the nutters I did then.

I knew guys who were wannabe army/marines killers before they set foot in a recruitment office

Of course there are individuals like that, we're not talking about a handful of people though - we're talking about thousands and thousands of people. The military itself has long recognised the problem of turning its recruits/conscripts into killers. We had reports of harry patch and his comrades signing a pact not to kill an enemy solider in the news recently.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I support our soldiers. I support them so much that I want them out of Afghanistan and back in Britain. Let them drive tanks in Dorset or yomp about on Dartmoor and practise their trade, firing guns with hopefully no one getting killed.

The Afghanistan situation is not a war against any clear enemy. The Afghan government is not supported by the people as a whole. The police are corrupt. The Taliban are not Al Quaida. And we are not protecting ourselves against terrorism by being in Afghanistan; we are increasing its likelihood.

And yes young people in areas of high unemployment have always joined the Services to get a job or career. To them it probably seems like a good idea at the time.

 

[Sadken]

I just think it's natural and easier to identify with someone who has had the same sort of cultural upbringing that you have than someone from somewhere completely different with different experiences, values etc.

Like, it's easier for me to relate to the problems of someone living on a shit estate than it is for me to relate to someone living in a refugee camp. Doesn't mean I don't feel for both, just that I can more easily understand the problems of the shit estate person. Refugee camps are pretty much an abstract concept for me.

I think the only way it's reported that way is for a sort of "there but for the grace of God..." feeling. I dunno...I may be talking shit now.

 

[spring-peeper]

I feel the same way about our soldiers deaths as I do for the deaths of police and firefighters.

No more, no less.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I feel sorry for their families. I feel very sorry for the families of the victims of the British army too. It is a tool of aggression, not defence, that is growing into the nasty habit of invading other countries, and it kills many times more people than it loses from its ranks.

They killed and died on the orders of fools.

As ever.

 

[boskysquelch]

You miss the point.

not really.. I get it... but it's pretty illogical to expect such a turn around for the UK's Armed Forced to become the UK Unarmed Forces.

However , in Time, there is always some "hope" that All Nations will become Neutral & the weaponry War will Man v Man will no longer be necessary.


But taking things right down to ther bear bones...a lot more than a few dozen/hundreds/thousands/millions will have to die before any of that comes to pass.


For a start...if the Third World/Middle East was to no longer receive any assistance or communication, whatsoever, that would be a good earner for Peace....plenty plenty would die off before they got the chance to become soldiers of a cause....breeders & teachers alike.... the Problems would soon go away.

Would that be less stressful for you?

 

[Sadken]

They killed and died on the orders of fools.

As ever.

Except not "as ever", is it? There have been just wars commanded by very smart people.

 

[Spion]

I feel the same way about our soldiers deaths as I do for the deaths of police and firefighters.

No more, no less.

Is it compulsory to end pompous posts on this subject in this way now? That's two in the thread so far

 

[Orang Utan]

Except not "as ever", is it? There have been just wars commanded by very smart people.

i'm increasingly beginning to doubt that

 

[Spion]

Except not "as ever", is it? There have been just wars commanded by very smart people.

such as?

 

[Dillinger4]

I just think it's natural and easier to identify with someone who has had the same sort of cultural upbringing that you have than someone from somewhere completely different with different experiences, values etc.

Like, it's easier for me to relate to the problems of someone living on a shit estate than it is for me to relate to someone living in a refugee camp. Doesn't mean I don't feel for both, just that I can more easily understand the problems of the shit estate person. Refugee camps are pretty much an abstract concept for me.

I think the only way it's reported that way is for a sort of "there but for the grace of God..." feeling. I dunno...I may be talking shit now.

I dunno.

We are all human innit. Whether you live on my estate or wherever, we all go essentially go through the same stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, they're getting others to die for them and the interests of their class - that's pretty smart.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For a start...if the Third World/Middle East was to no longer receive any assistance or communication, whatsoever, that would be a good earner for Peace....plenty plenty would die off before they got the chance to become soldiers of a cause....breeders & teachers alike.... the Problems would soon go away.

You think that without the benevolent 'assistance and communication' of the rich world, the poor would just die? Do you have any understanding of the nature of the relationship between rich and poor nations in the world?

 

[spring-peeper]

Is it compulsory to end pompous posts on this subject in this way now? That's two in the thread so far

really - you think my answer was pompous?

I just read the question, voted and then posted.

 

[London_Calling]

Would that be less stressful for you?

It's nice you're concerned about my stress (twice!), but I'll probably muddle through, thanks.

 

[Orang Utan]

Well, they're getting others to die for them and the interests of their class - that's pretty smart.

but just?

 

[boskysquelch]

There's no such thing as 'warrior mode' - not naturally anyway, the military have to work very hard to produce that mentality. It doesn't come first.

this is true of all human artisan abilities ime.

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck off twat

 

[butchersapron]

but just?

eh? What do you mean?

 

[Sadken]

such as?

World War 2, the 7 years war, the Vietnamese campaigns against France and the US...

You think NO war has ever been just and they have ALL been run by incompetents?

 

[spring-peeper]

such as?

I'd bet WWII may qualify, but history is written by the winners, isn't it?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I just think it's natural and easier to identify with someone who has had the same sort of cultural upbringing that you have than someone from somewhere completely different with different experiences, values etc.

I honestly don't feel any more compassion or sympathy if a British person dies compared to a foreign national, and a quick poll of one other person suggests they feel the same. I suspect more people than the papers realise feel the same way.

I think you might be right with the thing about shared cultural values, but I think it only "naturally" applies more to smaller, closer to home groups, unless you strongly form your identity on being part of a larger group.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well, they're getting others to die for them and the interests of their class - that's pretty smart.

Indeed. It seems to me an obvious point, but it's worth saying because people seem to miss it: the squaddies don't start the wars.

 

[Orang Utan]

eh? What do you mean?

i was questioning whether any recent wars have been 'just'

 

[Sadken]

I dunno.

We are all human innit. Whether you live on my estate or wherever, we all go essentially go through the same stuff.

Nah, we don't mate. There's no way we could begin to imagine the experiences of someone who survived, say, the Rwandan civil war. We would have no frame of reference to understand that.

 

[rekil]

We had reports of harry patch and his comrades signing a pact not to kill an enemy solider in the news recently.

My cousin and his tank crew did something like that in the first gulf war. They had a healthy contempt for the whole thing. They only started firing properly when the Iraqi shells started getting a bit too close and thought they were going to be hit.

 

[Sadken]

I honestly don't feel any more compassion or sympathy if a British person dies compared to a foreign national, and a quick poll of one other person suggests they feel the same. I suspect more people than the papers realise feel the same way.

I think you might be right with the thing about shared cultural values, but I think it only "naturally" applies more to smaller, closer to home groups, unless you strongly form your identity on being part of a larger group.

I'm not saying that I necessarily feel more sympathy, just trying to get at the reason it's reported that way.

 

[boskysquelch]

It's nice you're concerned about my stress (twice!), but I'll probably muddle through, thanks.

I understand and share your Ire. But believe. by observation here, you also understand the complexities of living in the Age we do.

What is it you "want"?

Seriously.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'd bet WWII may qualify, but history is written by the winners, isn't it?

wwii wasn't waged to save the jews you know

 

[Orang Utan]

Fuck off twat

i hope that was to bosky!