The Cover of Today's METRO? Why can't dozy anarchos come up with something that good?

[Taxamo Welf]

I think it's not bad. The graphics are quite clear and strong, and the text is straightforward and unpretentious.

The only problem is it's a bit unclear how literally the "restaurant" analogy is supposed to be taken.

have you read it, or are we back to discussing the cover?

If you've read it - i think its fairly self explanatory. The restaurant is compared to all work: raw material + labour = profit. So it is literally about restaurants, but also about all workplaces.

If i were to write something i admit, it would be a bit simpler at Abolish Restaurants. But I think there is a place for a decent explanation of things, and Abolish is hardly full-on theoretical stuff. I think the combination of pictures and text are absolutely genius; the design is for me, one of the best things i've in politics full stop.

 

[Blagsta]

too much text?!

If your talking about the inside, as opposed to the cover then. Mate, it's a fucking book. There are words in it. Some people don't read books, i don't think that's a valid point here! If i asked you if you thought V for Vendetta worked as a film would you say "well not if you were blind"?

Sorry, I haven't seen the actual item in question. I thought the original image you posted was a leaflet.

I still think "abolish restaranunts" isn't going to reach people who aren't already political

 

[teuchter]

have you read it, or are we back to discussing the cover?

If you've read it - i think its fairly self explanatory. The restaurant is compared to all work: raw material + labour = profit. So it is literally about restaurants, but also about all workplaces.

If i were to write something i admit, it would be a bit simpler at Abolish Restaurants. But I think there is a place for a decent explanation of things, and Abolish is hardly full-on theoretical stuff. I think the combination of pictures and text are absolutely genius; the design is for me, one of the best things i've in politics full stop.

I did read it, or most of it. I understand that it is literally about restaurants but really about a wider point. I just mean that, at first glance, and reading the first few pages, this might not be clear to all people. Obviously it hasn't been clear to Chico Enrico for example.

Like I say, I think it's pretty good in many ways. I don't think I'd necessarily use the word "genius" though.

 

[chico enrico]

Look, the fact of the matter is that 'abolish restaurants' thing isn't even what could be described as 'propaganda'. As the raison d'aetre is to consolidate a position and convert the uninitiated to a cause. I saw that 'abolish restautants' on a stall at the @ bookfair, and just thought "jesus, what foolishness will they think up next?" Do you really think anyone on the planet who isn't already well versed in and converted to anarchist/libertarian politics would ever even give that a second look, let alone pick it up and open it?

i appreciate the 'restaurant' is a metaphor for society under capitalism, but it is a crap one. I mean, for fucks sake, the message is problematic enough to communicate - do they really neeed to further obfuscate it by presenting it metaphorically??

and, with respect, i would have thought CW reached its 'peak' in around 1985. Funnily enough, looking back at it, a lot of the stuff we regarded as well 'populist' back then on reflection is just a load of lefty looking wank or plain nuttiness, but if you want what I think is an excellent example of 'propaganda' per se i'd say look no further than the peerless "ANOTHER FUCKING ROYAL PARASITE" cover.

No metaphors necessary there, mate.

 

[chico enrico]

Incidentally, i thought up a cracking anti BNP image last night:

a poster/leaflet with a funny cartoon of a dodgy looking charagter in jackboots, stockings, stspenders, leiderhosen and an SS army tunic & german helmet, standing by the door of a wardrobe , inside which can be seen , hanging up a striped suit bearing a BNP canvassing rosette plus a big bag marked 'nails' and a bucket marked 'explosives'.

by the side would be the words BNP = BOMBERS, NONSES & PERVS

with a brief list copeland & lecomber's convictions for bombings plus other unsavoury far right characters convicions for kiddy fiddling, underwear theft and the like.

basically an image targetting THEIR demographic and making it something to be fucking ashamed and embarassed about being linked to.

that, my friends, is what i would call GOOD propaganda, if i may say so my self

 

[teuchter]

What has the BNP got to do with sexual "perversions" or cross-dressing, and what has the latter got to do with "kiddy-fiddling"?

That's not propaganda, that's just schoolyard stuff.

And using lederhosen as a symbol of Nazism would be a little offensive to all the Bavarians who regard it as part of their national dress.

 

[chico enrico]

What has the BNP got to do with sexual "perversions" or cross-dressing, and what has the latter got to do with "kiddy-fiddling"?

That's not propaganda, that's just schoolyard stuff.

And using lederhosen as a symbol of Nazism would be a little offensive to all the Bavarians who regard it as part of their national dress.

well, that's the whole point ya dough-ball!! if i was to run any sort of anti-BNP campaign it's whole modus operandi would be to expressly link the BNP with sexual "perversions", cross-dressing and "kiddy-fiddling"?

you really think the folk who join up give a fuck about being associated with 'right-wing views' or 'racism'? it's like thinking their football hoolie or skinhead members would be put of by being labelled 'violent'

propaganda attains an objective. in this case putting folk off the BNP by way of associating it with impaling babies in brixton market with 6" nails and sexual deviance.

what's the opposite of 'schoolyardy' then - libcom think tank? hahaha...

and by the way, colin jordan, original BNP founder got done for nicking women's underwear and one of their welsh organisers is a convicted nonse. could think of loads more examples but can't be bothered.

and couldn't really care less about folk who wear leiderhosen mate, unless it was that porn star i remember dancing about in a pair on Eurotrash a while back.

 

[chico enrico]

What has the BNP got to do with sexual "perversions" or cross-dressing, and what has the latter got to do with "kiddy-fiddling"?.

ah, see what you mean. personally, i'm a pretty laisez faire kinda guy and don't give a fuck what anyone gets up to with man or beast and i know there's absolutely zero link between cross-dressing and kiddy-fiddling, but for the purposes of the graphic i'm happy to pander to the prejudices of its target demographic. it's just a funny image. etter than anything else i've fuckin seen anyway, and i could bet you it'd get more results.

 

[teuchter]

What you propose is just the equivalent of shouting "BNP smells of poo", except that you throw in a few things that are offensive to groups you aren't even targetting for good measure.

By using a penchant for crossdressing or wearing lederhosen as "insults" you are employing just the kind of bigotry that you claim makes the BNP so deplorable.

Good propaganda is much more clever than that.

 

[chico enrico]

What you propose is just the equivalent of shouting "BNP smells of poo", except that you throw in a few things that are offensive to groups you aren't even targetting for good measure.

By using a penchant for crossdressing or wearing lederhosen as "insults" you are employing just the kind of bigotry that you claim makes the BNP so deplorable.

Good propaganda is much more clever than that.

No it's not. Good propaganda is crude and offensive and takes the piss. making the 'target' look ridiculous, thus emasculating their potency, undermining their allure and eroding their support.

I'm not out to score 'PC' points to swap for drinks tokens at the 'Anti-Sexist Men's Group' Christmas party. I'm out to get results.

and what is it with you and lederhosen anyway?

 

[ovaltina]

They had a good front page photo today, to go with seven pages of budget news and economic anaysis. Headline was "I owe, I owe it's off to work I go" which I thought was pretty good, then the picture was Alistair Darling on shop window TV set, being watched by a man, and there were interest free credit signs on the window. I reckon a fair bit of thought went into that front page.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Tax - I think Libcom and Abolish Restaurants could be said to be good political literature. I've not seen crimethinc.

But, as has been pointed out, that isn't propaganda in the sense of what is being discussed on this thread. It all seems aimed at people who already have sympathetic views.

There seems to be a general consensus that Class War in the 80s was the highpoint of anarcho-tabloidism. That doesn't say much for the last 20 years.

 

[teuchter]

No it's not. Good propaganda is crude and offensive and takes the piss. making the 'target' look ridiculous, thus emasculating their potency, undermining their allure and eroding their support.

Then I'm a little surprised you consider Abram Games' work the best propaganda of all time.

 

[chico enrico]

Then I'm a little surprised you consider Abram Games' work the best propaganda of all time.

I think graphically his accreditation of that honour is fairly indisputable.

Though there are plenty of other excellent propagandists amongst the allies, nazis, soviets, spanish civil war and chinese cultural revolution. Also some remarkable works produced during the serbo-croat war.

however, those examples were mostly a considerable number of years ago and times change.

I certainly don't have their draughtmanship abilities but i do have a mate who can draw funny cartoons of pervy looking panty sniffing nazi types so you gotta make do with what's available.

anyway, you still ain't answered what is it with you and lederhosen anyway?

 

[teuchter]

What's wrong with lederhosen?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

What's wrong with lederhosen?

I'm ambivalent about lederhosen myself, perhaps you could post of photograph of you wearing some and use this to illustrate why you consider them to be such fine garments?

 

[Frampton]

ABOLISH RESTAURANTS certainly had an impact here.

It was easy to be seduced by the high standard of design and illustrations but once you got into the tired Marxist jargon I couidn't help thinking what are these people on about? I've had some good times in restaurants.

Anyway, the booklet did inspire the idea of putting on an Anarchist Gourmet Vegan Dinner at the 1in12 club. We bought the ingredients locally, we laid tables with white cloths, polished wine glasses and even had red and black serviettes.

18 punters turned up (at £1.50 for a three course meal) and had a great time. Just about everyone said that this may be the best may to host future Anarchist meetings. We intend to repeat the exercise in the New Year. A different way of approaching propaganda. The venture is written up in Total Liberty (available on line I think).

On propaganda - each age and generation gets the propaganda it deserves. Novel approaches exist. Try The Match!, The Cunningham Amendment, Now or Never, Communicating Vessels.

 

[teuchter]

I'm ambivalent about lederhosen myself, perhaps you could post of photograph of you wearing some and use this to illustrate why you consider them to be such fine garments?

This is me wearing lederhosen in a professional context, last week, delivering a talk about Search Engines.

 

[chico enrico]

Gourmet Vegan Dinner

18 punters turned up (at £1.50 for a three course meal) and had a great time.

plus the five korean immigrants we recruited to through sweatshopsrus.com to prepare the food at 0.07p per hour for a 14 hour shift seemed happy enough too.

(((only joshing, it sounds good. went to the 1in12 a few times in the early '80s and had a top time)))

 

[chico enrico]

This is me wearing lederhosen in a professional context, last week, delivering a talk about Search Engines.

was THIS what the sale conference was for?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3oqnSSCHXWY

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Look, the fact of the matter is that 'abolish restaurants' thing isn't even what could be described as 'propaganda'. As the raison d'aetre is to consolidate a position and convert the uninitiated to a cause. I saw that 'abolish restautants' on a stall at the @ bookfair, and just thought "jesus, what foolishness will they think up next?" Do you really think anyone on the planet who isn't already well versed in and converted to anarchist/libertarian politics would ever even give that a second look, let alone pick it up and open it?

i appreciate the 'restaurant' is a metaphor for society under capitalism, but it is a crap one. I mean, for fucks sake, the message is problematic enough to communicate - do they really neeed to further obfuscate it by presenting it metaphorically??

and, with respect, i would have thought CW reached its 'peak' in around 1985. Funnily enough, looking back at it, a lot of the stuff we regarded as well 'populist' back then on reflection is just a load of lefty looking wank or plain nuttiness, but if you want what I think is an excellent example of 'propaganda' per se i'd say look no further than the peerless "ANOTHER FUCKING ROYAL PARASITE" cover.

No metaphors necessary there, mate.

mate, no offence but i didn't finish reading your post. You have repeatedly said you haven't read the pamphlet. What's to discuss?

i agree on the name fwiw, but so far that's all you've read.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

and couldn't really care less about folk who wear leiderhosen mate, unless it was that porn star i remember dancing about in a pair on Eurotrash a while back.

happy days

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Tax - I think Libcom and Abolish Restaurants could be said to be good political literature. I've not seen crimethinc.

But, as has been pointed out, that isn't propaganda in the sense of what is being discussed on this thread. It all seems aimed at people who already have sympathetic views.

There seems to be a general consensus that Class War in the 80s was the highpoint of anarcho-tabloidism. That doesn't say much for the last 20 years.

yes, i agree on all points.

thinking about it then, what was a good piece of propoganda by your measure?

J18

Why i'm here.

 

[In Bloom]

It was easy to be seduced by the high standard of design and illustrations but once you got into the tired Marxist jargon I couidn't help thinking what are these people on about? I've had some good times in restaurants.

.<----The mark

Frampton ---->.​

 

[In Bloom]

Incidentally, I don't think the immediate "WTF" reaction most people would have on seeing a pamphlet called "Abolish Restaurants" is a bad thing in itself. Done right, outlandish sounding slogans and titles can draw people into looking further by grabbing their attention, especially when it's accompanied by quality design and clear, succint explanations of complicated ideas. AR is propaganda in the sense that it seeks to convince the reader of a particular point of view, I wouldn't say it's aimed exclusively at people who are convinced of that point of view, so much as people who might be interested in radical ideas and are looking to learn more, which is no bad thing.

It's all too easy to get sucked into this idea that everything we publish has to appeal to people who are completely uninterested in what we have to say, it's also obviously futile if you think about it for more than a few seconds. Most people's "initiation" (for lack of a better word) into radical politics happens at a point where they're already "politicised" by circumstances or personal interest. This is where we need to be focussing the bulk of our efforts in terms of propaganda, at the point where people are already struggling (residents' associations, community groups, workplaces and other areas where there is an ongoing issue that has potential for further struggle).

I'm not saying that there's no place for more broadly aimed prop, but on its own, it's never going to yield much in the way of results.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

yes, i agree on all points.

thinking about it then, what was a good piece of propoganda by your measure?

J18

Why i'm here.

Well I'd agree with the CW stuff. I can't recall the visual propaganda around J18 although obviously it was a great day. Things like Evading Standards were a great idea but I can't actually remember what the content was like.

In terms of simplicity I guess some of the animal rights prop which simply exposes the cruelty is very effective (not that I am especially into AR).

I think this is perhaps a bit too clever for its own good but made me laugh:
http://www.geocities.com/nowar_buttheclasswar/nwbtcw_leaf6.pdf

But generally, in recent times, it doesn't seem to me that there is very much great propaganda to be had.

Perhaps this is indicative of the complexity of the poltiical landscape I dunno.

I've found it very hard to produce good effective propaganda around the privatisation of council housing stock, or council corruption. Perhaps things were more black and white in the past - Thatcher / Poll Tax / nuclear weapons - all very easy to produce simple slogans around...

Possibly I am more jaded and cynical these days also!

 

[chico enrico]

Incidentally, I don't think the immediate "WTF" reaction most people would have on seeing a pamphlet called "Abolish Restaurants" is a bad thing in itself. Done right, outlandish sounding slogans and titles can draw people into looking further by grabbing their attention, especially when it's accompanied by quality design and clear, succint explanations of complicated ideas. AR is propaganda in the sense that it seeks to convince the reader of a particular point of view, I wouldn't say it's aimed exclusively at people who are convinced of that point of view, so much as people who might be interested in radical ideas and are looking to learn more, which is no bad thing.

It's all too easy to get sucked into this idea that everything we publish has to appeal to people who are completely uninterested in what we have to say, it's also obviously futile if you think about it for more than a few seconds. Most people's "initiation" (for lack of a better word) into radical politics happens at a point where they're already "politicised" by circumstances or personal interest. This is where we need to be focussing the bulk of our efforts in terms of propaganda, at the point where people are already struggling (residents' associations, community groups, workplaces and other areas where there is an ongoing issue that has potential for further struggle).

I'm not saying that there's no place for more broadly aimed prop, but on its own, it's never going to yield much in the way of results.

yes, totally true. but , with respect, the purpose of this thread was to try to identify what WAS and IS good populist propaghanda. as yet NOONE has actually suggested ANYTHING!!

incidentally, i got a book ages ago called 'temp slave' which is basically saying alot of what those excerts from that "Abolish Restaurants" (AR) thing posted up here are saying, but in a highy engaging and amusing way, with none of the political jargon that noone-can deny every single line in these pages from AR are full of.

So, maybe it's not the concept of the publication i'm not convinced by , but its' execution (political jargon/language used general post-situ or 'autonomist' graphic style)

 

[chico enrico]

Well I'd agree with the CW stuff. I can't recall the visual propaganda around J18 although obviously it was a great day. Things like Evading Standards were a great idea but I can't actually remember what the content was like.

In terms of simplicity I guess some of the animal rights prop which simply exposes the cruelty is very effective (not that I am especially into AR).

I think this is perhaps a bit too clever for its own good but made me laugh:
http://www.geocities.com/nowar_buttheclasswar/nwbtcw_leaf6.pdf

But generally, in recent times, it doesn't seem to me that there is very much great propaganda to be had.

Perhaps this is indicative of the complexity of the poltiical landscape I dunno.

I've found it very hard to produce good effective propaganda around the privatisation of council housing stock, or council corruption. Perhaps things were more black and white in the past - Thatcher / Poll Tax / nuclear weapons - all very easy to produce simple slogans around...

Possibly I am more jaded and cynical these days also!

very good points. and particuklarly agree with what you say re animal rights propaganda, which is always very very simple, very evocative and totally devoid of jargon or any evident 'agenda' other than its immediate concern (though, arguably, Animal Righters probably have an even more dogmatic agenda than any political group!)

 

[In Bloom]

yes, totally true. but , with respect, the purpose of this thread was to try to identify what WAS and IS good populist propaghanda. as yet NOONE has actually suggested ANYTHING!!

• "Good" in what sense? Are you talking in terms of design? Content? Writing style?
• What do you want this hypothetical propaganda to do? Inspire people to action? Raise awareness of a particular issue or event? Demonstrate how already well known issues and events support the argument for your political viewpoint?
• Who is it aimed at? Your neighbours? People on the high street out shopping? Anybody who might happen to pick it up on the train?

Unless you know the answer to all that, it's impossible to say what makes a good piece of propaganda, it's very much context specific.

One thing the AF is doing at the moment is completely overhauling the design of our bulletin, Resistance. What we hope to end up with is a tabloid style (more Metro than the Sun) free newspaper with a clear and consistant style. Whether or not that'll work remains to be seen, we're very much in the early stages of this.

incidentally, i got a book ages ago called 'temp slave' which is basically saying alot of what those excerts from that "Abolish Restaurants" (AR) thing posted up here are saying, but in a highy engaging and amusing way, with none of the political jargon that noone-can deny every single line in these pages from AR are full of.

Did you read it? Take a look at the text from one of the pages Taxamo posted. Where's the jargon?

The workplace is set up not only to produce money for the boss, but also to produce restaurant workers who are isolated from each other, in competition with each other, prejudiced against each other, afraid for our jobs, and who only look for individual solutions to our problems. But this is only an ideal towards which management aspires. They are never completely successful because our activity tends to push in the opposite direction.

Restaurants bring us together with other restaurant workers in the same workplace. The work process itself requires that we cooperate and communicate with other workers. We pass plates back and forth. We explain food and drink orders. We figure out which tables need to be pressured to pay and leave to make room for upcoming reservations.

These conversations lead to more interesting ones. Everyone is looking for ways to make the work less boring or stressful. We joke around, deep fry candybars, juggle fruit, drum on the washing machine, and make fun of the customers.

This joking around leads to more serious cooperation. We spend a lot of time with our co-workers and learn a lot about each other. In between rushes we talk about our problems at work, in our personal life, with the immigration authorities. We are no longer a collection of separated individuals. We form informal groups of workers on the job which are capable of acting together. We go out for a drink after work. We cover each other's asses at work.

AR is pretty light on jargon, or as light on it as it can possibly be, while still explaining the core concepts. It also goes to fairly great lengths to explain the ideas behind technical terms (for instance, the surplus value as the value produced by the extra labour necessary to convert a bunch of ingredients into a meal and deliver it to the table).

It does what it sets out to do pretty well, it doesn't assume a level of knowledge most people won't already have and it doesn't throw around jargon without explaining it first. To be honest, it strikes me that you're saying a lot of things about it that obviously aren't true if you actually take the time to look at it. It's a pretty short pamphlet, it wouldn't take you ten minutes to read.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

very good points. and particuklarly agree with what you say re animal rights propaganda, which is always very very simple, very evocative and totally devoid of jargon or any evident 'agenda' other than its immediate concern (though, arguably, Animal Righters probably have an even more dogmatic agenda than any political group!)

This is the key issue I think - it is easy to demonstrate the injustice of beagles with aerials inserted in their heads. It doesn't need any explanation really.