the Closed Shop .. good or bad?

[KeyboardJockey]

I charatorise your posts as political scabbing. Its an awkward phrase and I wouldn't imagine you would use it. But I'm not going to indulge pseudo-intellectual demands that I prove a charaterisation.

Define political scabbing please. Then I will engage.

You do waffle on don't you. I'm glad you feel you represent the majority. I'm glad you feel you are representative of 'people'. I regard you as a person. An individual accountable to your own actions. You not only scab, but you come on here trying to demoralise others. You crow about how scabbing gets you listened to. You scab beyond the call of duty. That's why you are not representative of anyone but yourself.

FFS I didn't say scabbing gets you listened to. Read what I fucking post. I was so demoralised seeing most of my colleauges going through the line (I VOLUNTEERED fr the picket line hardly the actions of a union hater is it?) that I consider that the 04 strike was a failiure in terms of support levels. Something must be done to build. Maybe I work in a totally apathetic workplace which is not the norm but I don't think so. I've heard so much of other sections where a substantial proportion came in to work.

It is not demoralising others to tell the truth about a situation on the ground. Far more demoralising is to have publicity saying the action was 'great, brilliant, solid' etc when it plainly is not. Rather than regurgitating the same old bollocks why not make suggestions about how to improve things.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

i tend to agree with KJ on most things! but while i agree with your criticisms of reactionary unions/stewards mega phone lefties on their way to well paid jobs else where..

i fail to understand your support for Kysers anti union attitudes and more importantly

I don't have an anti union attitude. There were in the past excesses and unions (along with crap management) played their part in holding the UK back.

i also think that these matters are almost always matters of principle

I am not sure of the strike you felt was pointless supportting but

1) i suspect you agreed with the issue that it was about it in principle

Too right I did. I'm sick of seeing good working environments and knowledge lost.

2) that there was a vote as democratic as in most elections

The vote was democratic after a fashion. Although I have reservations due to the fact that a majority of the members didn't take part.

i entirely understand your reason to go in but surely we are better than that? personally i think it is one of those things you just never do

I'm going to see if I can borrow some money so the next time I can be out. I think the strike is a lost cause and mistakes have been made on the part of the union leadership but if I'm going to take a part in organising then I'll have to be out.

scab??? not sure .. i respect knotted in his/her unemotional style of posting but i am not sure i agree with him/her on this .. are all 80% in this workplace scabs? are then all the hundreds of thosusends who didn't support the strike nationally scabs? on one level yes but i think when we are such a minority we need to look to gain support NOT alienate it

Spot on. The union is not gaining support like it should in the circumstances.

 

[treelover]

e bay: not recived item, what next?

I bought a pc game on ebay, paid by paypal and have not received it one week one, it wasn't much money,.but if i don't receive it , afaiac it is theft, so what are my next steps?

couldn't find details on ebay

 

[ViolentPanda]

I bought a pc game on ebay, paid by paypal and have not received it one week one, it wasn't much money,.but if i don't receive it , afaiac it is theft, so what are my next steps?

couldn't find details on ebay

Have you been drinking the aftershave again?

 

[Knotted]

Define political scabbing please. Then I will engage.

What I mean is that you crossed the picket lines partly for political reasons and furthermore you promote those reasons on these boards, effectively encouraging others to do the same.

You disagree with the PCS line. That's fine but its no excuse. You say you were reluctant - which means the PCS is to blame for your actions. You talk about union democracy but you are prepared to sabotage collective decissions - there is no halfway house between individualism and democracy. It is upon these bases that you argue against the closed shop.

FFS I didn't say scabbing gets you listened to. Read what I fucking post.

Actually I'm going to admit that you have me here. I misread something you wrote in an earlier thread. However you were complaining that you weren't being listened to when you were in the PCS, leaving shouldn't help this situation. But in any case I apologise for misrepresenting you.

I was so demoralised seeing most of my colleauges going through the line (I VOLUNTEERED fr the picket line hardly the actions of a union hater is it?) that I consider that the 04 strike was a failiure in terms of support levels. Something must be done to build. Maybe I work in a totally apathetic workplace which is not the norm but I don't think so. I've heard so much of other sections where a substantial proportion came in to work.

Well, crossing the picket lines isn't going to help is it? How do you think the pickets felt when they saw another worker - who had supported them in the past - cross the picket lines. Imagine what its like when you cite inevitable failure as a reason. They have feelings as well you know.

It is not demoralising others to tell the truth about a situation on the ground. Far more demoralising is to have publicity saying the action was 'great, brilliant, solid' etc when it plainly is not. Rather than regurgitating the same old bollocks why not make suggestions about how to improve things.

I don't think the strike went half as badly as you imply but in anycase you demoralise mainly by justifying scabbing.

 

[Knotted]

scab??? not sure .. i respect knotted in his/her unemotional style of posting but i am not sure i agree with him/her on this .. are all 80% in this workplace scabs? are then all the hundreds of thosusends who didn't support the strike nationally scabs? on one level yes but i think when we are such a minority we need to look to gain support NOT alienate it

I can empathise with those who scabbed for their own private reasons, or who were too apathetic or cynical to bother. If, however, they raise these reasons in political discussion then its a different matter.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What I mean is that you crossed the picket lines partly for political reasons and furthermore you promote those reasons on these boards, effectively encouraging others to do the same.

The major political reason apart from the personal reasons is the PCS is going to lose this one big time.

You disagree with the PCS line. That's fine but its no excuse. You say you were reluctant - which means the PCS is to blame for your actions. You talk about union democracy but you are prepared to sabotage collective decissions - there is no halfway house between individualism and democracy. It is upon these bases that you argue against the closed shop.

I disagree, individualism and collectivism are not mutally exclusive. Every day we do things that are indvidualistic and collective depending of the situation. There is a halfway house and that is what unions should look for if they are to rebuild some semblance of coherence. My disagreements with the closed shop is it disadvantaged me and others and made me join a union that I did't want to join just to work.

Actually I'm going to admit that you have me here. I misread something you wrote in an earlier thread. However you were complaining that you weren't being listened to when you were in the PCS, leaving shouldn't help this situation. But in any case I apologise for misrepresenting you.

Fair do's. I've rejoined pcs and am going to attempt to make my branch less moribund.

Well, crossing the picket lines isn't going to help is it? How do you think the pickets felt when they saw another worker - who had supported them in the past - cross the picket lines. Imagine what its like when you cite inevitable failure as a reason. They have feelings as well you know.

Crossing the line didn't 'help' the situation but it didn't detract as the pcs is probably going to lose this one anyway. As I stated before it was seeing most of my colleauges go through when I was on the line which is made me think 'fuck it why should I bother'. I've been both sides of this. I've also been demoralised by the lack of solidarity.

I don't think the strike went half as badly as you imply but in anycase you demoralise mainly by justifying scabbing.

I can only judge by what I see and what I saw was most people working.
Maybe if the union was more relevant to people this wouldn't be the case. I'm going to try to become a union workplace organiser to help make the union more relevant. I reckon that I should be able to juggle finances to be able to afford to be off the next time. Its a gritted teeth thing, I despise the leadership of PCS but I need to be a union member.

 

[Knotted]

I disagree, individualism and collectivism are not mutally exclusive. Every day we do things that are indvidualistic and collective depending of the situation. There is a halfway house and that is what unions should look for if they are to rebuild some semblance of coherence. My disagreements with the closed shop is it disadvantaged me and others and made me join a union that I did't want to join just to work.

If you do what you want regardless of decisions arrived at democratically - even if the democratic procedures are imperfect - then the decisions are worthless. If you are talking about unions selling themselves and the 'democracy' of the marketplace - ie. 'buyers' vote with their feet - then this means that the workers ('buyers') have no direct control over decision making. That's 100% bureaucracy.

Where I work the union is for all intents and purposes a company union with no intention of doing anything. Management have taken over certain roles the union should be taking - they call it the Culture and Values Committee. They 'sell themselves' a lot better than the union. But workplace democracy does not enter into it.