the chinese submarine fleet and their effect on global politics

[kyser_soze]

Are you making some weird-ass assumption about the US, Russians and EU nations not having navies? Or that the real balance of power lies in the USNs 'boomer' fleet, which are basically floating missile platforms that could wipe out every major Chinese city in about 15 minutes, and still have enough nukes left to spare for the Russians and the ME?

You're very, very confused about all this.

 

[kyser_soze]

US Sub fleet:

Ohio class (18 in commission) — ballistic missile submarines, 4 converted into guided missile submarines (SSGN's).
Virginia class (5 in commission, 1 under construction, 6 on order) — attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) — attack submarines
Los Angeles class (49 in commission) — attack submarines

Chinese Sub fleet:

SSN
Type 091 Han class - 5 boats
Type 093 Shang class - at least 2 confirmed, more under construction
SSBN
Type 092 Xia class - 1 boat
Type 094 Jin class - at least 2 confirmed, more under construction
Diesel-Electric
Type 033 Romeo-class - mostly retired, 8 remain in service
Type 035 Ming-class - version of Romeo, 15 boats
Kilo-class - 4 Type 877EKM and 8 upgraded Type 636 in service
Type 039 Song-class - 13 boats [1]
Yuan-class - 1 boat + 2 under construction
SSGN Type 092 Xia class - under construction/conversion
SSG Project 629 submarine - at least 1 in service

Add the combined years of service experience between the two as well (and FWIW, subs are supposed to be able to sneak up on their enemy, it's kind of the whole point), I'd say that in a way situation the USN wouldn't just pwn the Chinese, in active engagement they'd wipe the Chinese sub fleet out.

 

[DownwardDog]

US Sub fleet:

Ohio class (18 in commission) — ballistic missile submarines, 4 converted into guided missile submarines (SSGN's).
Virginia class (5 in commission, 1 under construction, 6 on order) — attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) — attack submarines
Los Angeles class (49 in commission) — attack submarines

Chinese Sub fleet:

SSN
Type 091 Han class - 5 boats
Type 093 Shang class - at least 2 confirmed, more under construction
SSBN
Type 092 Xia class - 1 boat
Type 094 Jin class - at least 2 confirmed, more under construction
Diesel-Electric
Type 033 Romeo-class - mostly retired, 8 remain in service
Type 035 Ming-class - version of Romeo, 15 boats
Kilo-class - 4 Type 877EKM and 8 upgraded Type 636 in service
Type 039 Song-class - 13 boats [1]
Yuan-class - 1 boat + 2 under construction
SSGN Type 092 Xia class - under construction/conversion
SSG Project 629 submarine - at least 1 in service

Add the combined years of service experience between the two as well (and FWIW, subs are supposed to be able to sneak up on their enemy, it's kind of the whole point), I'd say that in a way situation the USN wouldn't just pwn the Chinese, in active engagement they'd wipe the Chinese sub fleet out.

The Chinese are also piss poor in the ASW assets dept. too with just 4 x Ka-28 helicopters attempting to bring liberation to the depths of the sea for the workers. The USN have 126 x MH-60Bs and 151 x P-3C.

 

[elbows]

Well air travel, missiles, satellites etc have reduced somewhat the influence of 'control of strategic waterways' in the grand scheme of things but I imagine its still a fairly important feature.

I hazard a guess that economic & other realities are a bigger driver of the changes in power balance that we will see this century. Now that Bush & Co's crude attempts to have another american century are discredited, it will be interesting to see the future unfold in hopefully not too bloody a way.

I welcome a better balance but in reality I suspect this will have profound implications for our lives which will be none too glorious, for whilst notions of freedom and democracy as we see them in the West today are at the very least not all they are cracked up to be, the baby will surely be thrown out with the bathwater.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Is there any point the Western powers and Russia trying to emulate the Chinese Naval build up or should they concede? The Chinese don't look as if they'll slow down in a hurry

I think the west already has some pretty big navies.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

As someone who has shot Olympic style archery, I have to point out that his stance sucks. He looks like he's compensating for an eye dominance problem.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

As someone who has shot Olympic style archery, I have to point out that his stance sucks. He looks like he's compensating for an eye dominance problem.

Do you need an arm guard when you get that good? I thought by then you'd be able to avoid hitting your arm. Have I missed something.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Do you need an arm guard when you get that good? I thought by then you'd be able to avoid hitting your arm. Have I missed something.

No you shouldn't really need an arm guard by then, but I think Olympic-style rules require the equipment. Their equipment requirements were so bad that I couldn't really afford to shoot that style. You might wrap up $5-$10K in one set.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

That's a lot $ for some archery kit.

I would love to have a play with one of those bows, but it would be wasted on me, I'm a crap shot, although I manage to avoid hitting my arm.

 

[kebabking]

Well air travel, missiles, satellites etc have reduced somewhat the influence of 'control of strategic waterways' in the grand scheme of things but I imagine its still a fairly important feature.

you'll not get much oil or steel on a 747 cargo plane...

SLOC's are as vital as ever - with oil possibly more so - so yes its interesting that the Chinese are moving from straight territorial defence to power projection, but the kit they are building isn't up to challenging US/UK naval dominance (its not nearly quiet enough, or with good enough passive systems) - and in doctrine, training and collective knowledge/experience of ASW they are cavemen compared to ASW navies like the US, UK, French, German, Dutch, Danish etc..

its not a 'aren't the Chinese thick' issue, its mearly that for the last 55 years Chinese naval doctrine has precluded 'Blue water' operations, so Submarine and AS warfare has been a very low priority in a system where even top priority hasn't been earth shattering, where as for NATO and allied Navies its been joint priority no. 1 with carrier aviation, or just priority no. 1, for the last 90 years.

it looks good - especially when photoshopped - and its indicative, but its not changing the world by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[100% masahiko]

China would probably have gotten to where it is now 30 years sooner if Mao hadn't gained power.

China was way behind before Mao came into power. The Qing dynasty famously opposed western technology - and this had a detrimental on the early modernisation of China.

Mao's great leap was too drastic. But it did happened in a time when China 'felt' vulnerable.

 

[likesfish]

china's subs are a generation behind and more importantly the Chinese navy is not that experienced.
they are building a new aircraft carrier but the ablity to bimble around annoying other countries is limited

 

[UnderOpenSky]

TBH does it matter that much? Once a country has nuclear weapons, who is going to mess with them?

 

[likesfish]

but if you want to use military force to achieve limited aims.
it matters
america can park a carrier task force anywhere on the planet.
china can't

 

[TitanSound]

china's subs are a generation behind and more importantly the Chinese navy is not that experienced.
they are building a new aircraft carrier but the ablity to bimble around annoying other countries is limited

They already have one carrier which was sold to them by the Russians on the understanding it would not be used for military purposes. Instead they are examining it to enable them to build said carrier.

 

[sim667]

I live in China - the part of it that's supposed to remain semi-autonomous until 2047 anyway - have studied the language, and read widely on its history and culture.

I think you might have swallowed a little too much of the guff surrounding the PRC's 60th anniversary...

I think what he meant is its a fascinating country, some very good points, and some very bad points like everywhere...

The only time ive been i just had people in uniforms trying to stop me going down the backstreets of some of the towns i went to

running away seemed to work lol.