The chimera of the universal ethic

[Johnny Canuck3]

jc2: out of interst, do you still read philosophy after you've finished your degree?

Yes, from time to time. Not textbooks. Also, a lot of my early reading of zen etc happened after my degree.

I think I'm more interested in reading other things, at this point. I figure if I haven't developed a philosophy by now, then I probably don't need one all that badly.

I'll probably get more interested again, when I get closer to being dead.

 

[bmd]

For me, the bottom line is that as a person with enough food to eat, I am in no position whatsoever to say anything to a hungry person about what they should or shouldn't do. I'm not even in a position to say "don't be a cunt".

So lack of food removes my responsibilities and gives me an absolute right over anyone and anything?

You come home and find me in your kitchen, stuffing my mouth with your food "hungry guvnor, not eaten in a days". I've broken your window and the rain has soaked your most favourite possession in all the world, rendering it to a piece of junk.

Would you usher me to the door, a food parcel tucked under my arm, exiting your apartment with a cheery goodbye or kick me out of your door, exiting your apartment at the speed of light with your foot up my arse?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So lack of food removes my responsibilities and gives me an absolute right over anyone and anything?

You come home and find me in your kitchen, stuffing my mouth with your food "hungry guvnor, not eaten in a days". I've broken your window and the rain has soaked your most favourite possession in all the world, rendering it to a piece of junk.

Would you usher me to the door, a food parcel tucked under my arm, exiting your apartment with a cheery goodbye or kick me out of your door, exiting your apartment at the speed of light with your foot up my arse?

If my apartment were genuinely the only place the urchin could find food - in the middle of a moor, say - and he was hungry and cold, and I was out so I couldn't let him in, then the food parcel and cheery goodbye option would ensue.

 

[bmd]

If my apartment were genuinely the only place the urchin could find food - in the middle of a moor, say - and he was hungry and cold, and I was out so I couldn't let him in, then the food parcel and cheery goodbye option would ensue.

So what if my perception of what was essential to my life was different to yours? That it wasn't food that I perceived to be at the top of my hierarchy of needs?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So what if my perception of what was essential to my life was different to yours? That it wasn't food that I perceived to be at the top of my hierarchy of needs?

You mean smack, perhaps?

Then I'd throw you back out the window.

 

[bmd]

You mean smack, perhaps?

Then I'd throw you back out the window.

I did mean smack, yes.

What I'm getting at is if lack of food removes my responsibilities and moves my rights above yours then is there anything else that can do that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I did mean smack, yes.

What I'm getting at is if lack of food removes my responsibilities and moves my rights above yours then is there anything else that can do that?

I don't think it makes any sense to talk about universal rights given the inequality of the world.

With regards to any kind of universal ethic that can be applied to all, no matter how poor, Gabriel Garcia Marquez came up with one - don't steal from those who have no more than you.

I think Primo Levi would have agreed with that. In Auschwitz, the absolute rules were 'every man for himself' and 'never do something for nothing'. Essentially, those who were more generous than this died. Some who were more selfish than this survived, and Primo Levi searched his memory very carefully to be sure that he hadn't survived at another's expense, that he had bartered for that shoe, or that extra ration of soup, and hadn't stolen it.

I think Auschwitz would have been the ultimate test of your ethics. Hence survivor guilt - the feeling that the best of us are all dead.

 

[gorski]

In WW II there was an uprising in at least one of the Croat concentration camps! Serbs, antifscists and so on stormed out...

There are always more options than allegedly the only one or the first one to come to mind...

At least in all things Human... In Animal Kingdom determinism is the name of the game, yes.

But with Humans... Hmmm...

Universal Human Rights are not necessarily a "reality"... as of yet... But that does not invalidate them as a project!

 

[Meltingpot]

So lack of food removes my responsibilities and gives me an absolute right over anyone and anything?

You come home and find me in your kitchen, stuffing my mouth with your food "hungry guvnor, not eaten in a days". I've broken your window and the rain has soaked your most favourite possession in all the world, rendering it to a piece of junk.

Would you usher me to the door, a food parcel tucked under my arm, exiting your apartment with a cheery goodbye or kick me out of your door, exiting your apartment at the speed of light with your foot up my arse?

Reminds me of a story about a man in an old time American town who was up before the judge for stealing food because he was hungry. The judge fined the man a dollar - then fined the members of the jury five dollars each for allowing the man to go hungry in their town.

I don't know whether it's true or not, but I'd like to think so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In WW II there was an uprising in at least one of the Croat concentration camps! Serbs, antifscists and so on stormed out...

In Auschwitz there was one large uprising - by the Sonderkomando, the poor wretches who had to clean out the crematoria. Every single man in the uprising was killed.

Of course there is always an alternative - the option to choose death rather than face the humiliation of keeping yourself alive.

As I said before, this is the origin of survivor guilt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In Animal Kingdom determinism is the name of the game, yes.

You may well be right.

But remember that humans are part of the Animal Kingdom too.

 

[gorski]

No, these are the real issues...

No, we're not! Moreover, you should remember we set ourselves apart from it, even against it and severely so!

So, would there still be "guilt" [by the possible survivors] had we all rose up, as it were, in a conzlager, do you think?!?

Or is that "everyone for themselves" presumes no other possibilities whatsoever are "realistic", so it's "reasonable" not to even try and hence it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, which asks for no real effort in essentially Human terms. I.e. for freedom to come up with another, creative, bold and deeply meaningful, "upright" solution - and since that potential solution to the concentration camp conundrum was just left behind, thence the "survivor's guilt"? Because they, in Hegelian terms [Master and Servile Consciousness], chose to just be but not to be free, as they were afraid for their lives, so didn't fight for there "I" and hence lost them [both their lives and their self-respect, not to mention dignity]?

Or is this too bold a question for a simple Darwinian primed for determinism and conservativism - thinking hard about the issues...??

Just for you to see that there are always other solutions, for as long as we're Human and yours is but a solution and I dare say a very short, shallow one, that never will cover that which is deeply and essentially Human...

Certainly, a part of Humanity will act in this manner and Hegel calls it the "Spiritual Animal Kingdom" [the sphere of Bourgeois Society] - but we will never be reduced to it and there will always be the other part of us who will never give in to this simplistic, conservative nonsense that only allows the worse possible options in [the ones that are already there] and presumes that nothing essentially New is ever "realistically possible"

Funnily enough, we have reached this stage of asking these questions freely and in that case one must ask: if we can't ever change who we are essentially - how come we managed thus far?

At the beginning there was - Future!!!

 

[gorski]

In Auschwitz there was one large uprising - by the Sonderkomando, the poor wretches who had to clean out the crematoria. Every single man in the uprising was killed.

Of course there is always an alternative - the option to choose death rather than face the humiliation of keeping yourself alive.

As I said before, this is the origin of survivor guilt.

In the example I mentioned NOT everyone was killed! That is yet another possibility you don't even see...

So, you are always 'leading' in your "ponderings"...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In the example I mentioned NOT everyone was killed! That is yet another possibility you don't even see...

So, you are always 'leading' in your "ponderings"...

Your example wasn't in Auschwitz. You assumed that I was talking about concentration camps in general. In fact, I mentioned the case of Primo Levi and Auschwitz in particular. Read my posts more carefully.

 

[gorski]

Jeezuuuusss... Some people really can't talk on the level of principles... [Too damn hard, I know...]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A bloke broke out of Ford Open Prison the other week. He wasn't shot at or anything.

 

[gorski]

So, it was only the dogs...?