Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The CBI once again prove how out of touch with reality they are....

:eek:
Jesus christ.....

Edit to add: I ask, tbaldwin because you clearly haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about. And were you to be working in the education sector then i think it is really bloody important to know -because i'd LOVE to know where you are getting this misinformed drivel you are spouting from. Y'know, stuff like facts, figures, demographics and other such data that you would use to support your inflammatory assertions...

Good stuff Nylock so you like facts and stuff like that. Perhaps you could help me here cos i was wondering if you could naswer these questions.

1 What % of the UK population attends private fee paying schools?
2 What % of H/E students come from fee paying schools?
3 What % of Oxbridge students come from fee paying schools?
4 What % of people worldwide have a higher education?
5 What is the annual subsidy given to H/E in the UK?
6 How much is the average paid by H/E students in annual tuition fees?
7 How much is the average paid by H/E students from fee paying schools?
 
Yes OFC they are charged full tuition costs and all the other costs (such as materials etc) that are generally waived or subsidised for those who come from a poorer background. If they are from overseas and private then they are charged even more due to the domestic demand for the positions. Some positions are 'set aside' for overseas placements but not a significant amount and the fees for a wealthy overseas student can be very high indeed.

The only 'subsidised' private school students (beyond ones sorted by the funny handshakes of the old boys network) are those that were 'subsidised' through the private system -i.e. scholarship students who have exceptional ability that are from poor or low income backgrounds.

Yes i do work in education and i have been through the system from primary to higher education.

So, once again; do you work in education? If so, in what bloody capacity?

Or are you going to keep trolling with ad hominems and half truths making out you have some clue as to what you are talking about whilst actually knowing the square root of very fucking little whilst assuming a shitload-squared?

...If you are from the latter camp then i will bow out of this discussion now as your views are the worst of both worlds -entrenched and wrong.

Edit to add: I will come back to this when i have put the kids to bed.... so i can attempt to answer your questions mr statistician ;p
 
Good stuff Nylock so you like facts and stuff like that. Perhaps you could help me here cos i was wondering if you could naswer these questions.

1 What % of the UK population attends private fee paying schools?
2 What % of H/E students come from fee paying schools?
3 What % of Oxbridge students come from fee paying schools?
4 What % of people worldwide have a higher education?
5 What is the annual subsidy given to H/E in the UK?
6 How much is the average paid by H/E students in annual tuition fees?
7 How much is the average paid by H/E students from fee paying schools?

funny how you like to ask questions but always avoid answering ones put to you.

One might almost think you couldn't actually defend your own posts (not that i could blame you for ot defending such rubbish)
 
Nylock are you now claiming that people from fee paying schools have to pay the full cost of their higher education? Or just that some of them have to pay full tuition fees which is only a small percentage of the real costs?
I think you need to clarify that.
 
Nylock are you now claiming that people from fee paying schools have to pay the full cost of their higher education? Or just that some of them have to pay full tuition fees which is only a small percentage of the real costs?
I think you need to clarify that.

why wont you clarify how much you want the majority (ie those who didnt go to public school) to pay? it's almost as if you are trying to change the subject.
 
why wont you clarify how much you want the majority (ie those who didnt go to public school) to pay? it's almost as if you are trying to change the subject.

Happy to answer that.....Probably a bit more than they pay now eg maybe 10-20% more and do away with all student loans and make sure all the money is paid up front.
 
:D aaah, how nice, you'll answer that - because you can come up with something grotesquely simplistic and comes halfway to making sense I imagine.

What should they live on whilst university if there are no loans or grants? and you really really would be restrciting it to the rich then, arent you?
 
:D aaah, how nice, you'll answer that - because you can come up with something grotesquely simplistic and comes halfway to making sense I imagine.

What should they live on whilst university if there are no loans or grants? and you really really would be restrciting it to the rich then, arent you?

How should they live? Well for a start if they are clever enough for a higher education then they are probably clever enough to work and save for a few years before going to university.
I think if they all did that they might be more able to appreciate the privelege of higher education.
 
So, once again; do you work in education? If so, in what bloody capacity?

Or are you going to keep trolling with ad hominems and half truths making out you have some clue as to what you are talking about whilst actually knowing the square root of very fucking little whilst assuming a shitload-squared?

i'd bow out, balders has repeatedly argued that facts arent relevant in political discussion and refused to acknowledge sound sources on the basis that they are 'facts'

so i wouldnt waste your time
 
So, can you be clear? The only people who should go to university are those with rich enough parents to pay for the lot (and the rich should pay), or those who have saved up enough for three or more years of fee's and living expenses, ie a minimum of thirty grand. That's the health service fucked then, loads more filipino nurses needed. but you're not being elitist, oh no, not in any way.

Really, try thinking something through before making such daft comments balders, you're making yourself look a right prannock.
 
i'd bow out, balders has repeatedly argued that facts arent relevant in political discussion and refused to acknowledge sound sources on the basis that they are 'facts'

so i wouldnt waste your time

Rubbish....I have consistently argued that people try and use all kinds of spurious made up facts and statistics by dodgy organisations that suit their political prejudices.
I hope Nylock proves better at collecting facts than you were when your tried to say most of outer london was posh.
 
So, can you be clear? The only people who should go to university are those with rich enough parents to pay for the lot (and the rich should pay), or those who have saved up enough for three or more years of fee's and living expenses, ie a minimum of thirty grand. That's the health service fucked then, loads more filipino nurses needed. but you're not being elitist, oh no, not in any way.

Really, try thinking something through before making such daft comments balders, you're making yourself look a right prannock.


You seem to have got this 100% wrong somehow......
I think that H/E can be a good thing and think it would be a good idea if more people got the opportunity of a H/E.
To do that means looking at who goes and who pays for it and when they go.

At the moment we still have an H/E system mostly based on the idea that bright kids (eg mostly from better off backgrounds) should start H/E at 18 or 19 if they want a gap year..... I think thats shit......
 
Anyway back to the point...

Waiting for you Nylock....





Good stuff Nylock so you like facts and stuff like that. Perhaps you could help me here cos i was wondering if you could naswer these questions.

1 What % of the UK population attends private fee paying schools?
2 What % of H/E students come from fee paying schools?
3 What % of Oxbridge students come from fee paying schools?
4 What % of people worldwide have a higher education?
5 What is the annual subsidy given to H/E in the UK?
6 How much is the average paid by H/E students in annual tuition fees?
7 How much is the average paid by H/E students from fee paying schools?
 
Rubbish....I have consistently argued that people try and use all kinds of spurious made up facts and statistics by dodgy organisations that suit their political prejudices.

oh yeah, we were talking about legal, middle class immigration and you refused to accept home office figures on visas granted
 
oh yeah, we were talking about legal, middle class immigration and you refused to accept home office figures on visas granted

1 Yeah id question facts about immigration coming from the home office.
2 Do you remember the context and how you tried to use those er stats?
 
do you think the home office lies about the number of visas they grant

carse rested, goodnight

But the number of visas granted was one of your silly diversions dressed up as unquestionable evidence that you were right and you werent were you...revisit the thread bump it if you like so others can see.
 
Good stuff Nylock so you like facts and stuff like that. Perhaps you could help me here cos i was wondering if you could naswer these questions.

1 What % of the UK population attends private fee paying schools?
2 What % of H/E students come from fee paying schools?
3 What % of Oxbridge students come from fee paying schools?
4 What % of people worldwide have a higher education?
5 What is the annual subsidy given to H/E in the UK?
6 How much is the average paid by H/E students in annual tuition fees?
7 How much is the average paid by H/E students from fee paying schools?


Ok, i'll play... I hope you have your numbers to hand....

1 What % of the UK population attends private fee paying schools?

'Only 7 percent of our children go to private schools, yet they take about half of Oxbridge places and make up to 35 percent of "straight A" students. (Times: 1 Mar 01)'

'The UK independent sector as a whole educates around 628,000 children in around 2,600 schools. The independent sector educates around 6.5% of the total number of schoolchildren in the UK (and over 7% of the total number of schoolchildren in England) with the figure rising to more than 18% of pupils over the age of 16.(Independent Schools Council 2009)'

So, there we have it, even accounting for the 16+ age group a small minority of the total.

2 What % of H/E students come from fee paying schools?

'...the social gap is most acute at elite universities – only 16 per cent of students at Russell Group universities are from lower socio-economic backgrounds.' (T.H.E.2009)

In case you weren't aware, the Russell group comprises just 20 universities out of the entire HE sector. Please also bear in mind that FE colleges are able to deliver HE provision now also which puts that percentage into even greater relief as to do a HE course you are subject to the same fee and support structure as you are in a uni.

I will get more concrete numbers on this as the source material is tricky to get hold of outside the library but going on the ISC figures then approximately 20% of undergrads are from fee schools.

3 What % of Oxbridge students come from fee paying schools?

Around 45-55% depending on which stats you look at. Again, oxbridge represents just two institutions of the 20-strong Russell group. When you consider that the student body of oxford and cambridge universities combined is approximately 40,000 undergraduate places then pretty much 65-75% the entire private education provision is covered by just these two institutions... (there are more postgrad and research positions on top but we are just arguing the post-secondary to undergrad positions here as this is the overwhelming majority of HE positions).

4 What % of people worldwide have a higher education?

around 30-35% of OECD populations (depending on whose stats you look at) Dropping to around 4-6% for the rest of the world (T.H.E. 2009/U.N. 2007/OECD 2005-2008/PRB 2008)

5 What is the annual subsidy given to H/E in the UK?

HE Currently receives around 10 billion in govt spending out of a total education budget of 60 billion. The figures vary depending on whose you look at but those are an average. So around 17.5% of spending goes to HE -this is based on 2007 spending figures. More recent figures are quite tricky to get hold of but Education spending tends to get locked into multi-year cycles so '07 will have to do for now :p

6 How much is the average paid by H/E students in annual tuition fees?

Again, dependent on circumstance, course, college etc no one figure stands out but estimates range from 0 (fully subsidised) to the maximum allowable (currently around 5500 a year if i recall correctly). These are JUST the fees. general living expenses add up to 11k annually (again, dependent on area) -general expenses count as rent/rates/food. *Travel is considered seperately as are material costs. these can add up to another 5-7k depending on area etc (sourced NUS 2002-2007, IFL 2009)

7 How much is the average paid by H/E students from fee paying schools?

If you can find this stat, please feel free to enlighten me -i think i have done enough work for you tonight :p But going by various uni guidelines, those that come from families that can afford to pay the fees end up paying up to the full cost.... 'Means testing' ring a bell? :rolleyes::p

Edit to add: *transport and materials works out to that figure over the three years of a degree course, the figures do not include returns to home for holidays/visits etc. The transport figures purely cover travel to and from the institution during the semesters.
 
How should they live? Well for a start if they are clever enough for a higher education then they are probably clever enough to work and save for a few years before going to university.
I think if they all did that they might be more able to appreciate the privelege of higher education.

They aren't clever enough to reverse a global economic downturn in order to to get a job that secures them the 30k plus to do a bloody uni course though. Unless they enlist ofc...

sorry, couldn't let this one pass :p
 
Jesus has this country truly fucked over this young generation. You need a degree to get jobs you used to need an A level or a couple of good O levels for. The degrees cost you a small mountain of debt. The generations above rode to property boom and created wealth out of housing and now those at the bottom of the property ladder are facing houses that can cost well over 7 times the median annual income. They will have to work and pay taxes for a pension system that was massivly under invested in (both public and private) and yet face working till they are 70 to collect theirs. Their tax will go in large part to pay of the costs of the UKs debt binge and financial cock ups and they will be left with the North Sea oil run dry.

'Had a great party kids, hope you dont mind picking up the bill'
 
nope, not defending subsidies (except to those who need them most -i.e. those who otherwise would not be able to get a uni education without said subs), however the means testing system is in place ostensibly to prevent people from privileged backgrounds cheating the support system. The financial checks they undertake are intrusive to say the least.
 
nope, not defending subsidies (except to those who need them most -i.e. those who otherwise would not be able to get a uni education without said subs), however the means testing system is in place ostensibly to prevent people from privileged backgrounds cheating the support system. The financial checks they undertake are intrusive to say the least.

So you are for means testing then?
 
Back
Top Bottom