Higher education is a privelege enjoyed by less than 5% of the worlds population. Call me old fashioned but i think that Socialists and Internationalists might at a time of World economic crisis have better things to do than campaign for a privelleged minority.
The CBI once again prove how out of touch with reality they are....
- Thread starter Nylock
- Start date
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
A sample of your argument thus far:
...i ask again, do you work in education? Because -especially in the latter quotes- you are making some woefully misguided assumptions of the status-quo in HE provision.... Plus you are contradicting yourself on the subject of elitism... Either that or you are not reading through your replies before hitting the 'post' button....
and BTW i am not arguing against the fact that those who benefit from HE ought to pay the loans back when they can afford to -the days of having a 'free ride' through the HE system were numbered when it was removed from the domain of the privileged few. However, what is being proposed by the CBI is disgraceful when you look at how much they asked for in bailouts and support when they went to the government cap in hand during the height of the financial crisis.
Frankly, business ought to keep it's nose well out of the affairs of education and should concentrate on sorting it's own inefficiencies/bloated bureaucracies out.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Balders's philosophy is a simple one: H.E. is elitist, therefore it is the purview of toffs and nobs and he doesn't want his tax spent on it.
The fact that such assumptions are simplistic and incorrect don't matter!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Cornflakes are a privelege enjoyed by less than 5% of the worlds population. Call me old fashioned but i think that Socialists and Internationalists might at a time of World economic crisis have better things to do than campaign for a privelleged minority.[/QUOTE]
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
Balders's philosophy is a simple one: H.E. is elitist, therefore it is the purview of toffs and nobs and he doesn't want his tax spent on it.
The fact that such assumptions are simplistic and incorrect don't matter!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
How do nation-states (horrible, but we're stuck with them at the mo) build a viable economy without the infrastructure to allow people to specialise in higher education, balders?
You're not going to get the "developing world" developing without the means to educate doctors, nurse, engineers and scientists (although they could probably do without educating economists).
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
This is gonna be one of the worst things to result from this recession and the massive public debt that has ensued. A whole host of liberal/conservative groups and individuals will be using the deficit as an excuse to push through their right wing economic policies. They're already succeeding in convincing everyone that we need a "little" government so they can sack all the public sector workers. Everything they suggest will involve either sacking people or making it harder for those at the bottom. It seems they've got all these great suggestions to balance the books apart from the most obvious solution which would be to raise taxes. They will never suggest anything that limits their ability to make as much money as possible, instead passing the buck to the less well off.
_angel_
.
Rightly or wrongly, you are starting to need a degree to do absolutely any sort of job above the rate of the minimum wage now.
I know there are people with *ahem* chips on their shoulders about education who spout on about how well they did without one, but it's not like that anymore.
You need a nursing degree to be a nurse, are nurses privileged people?
Yes we have higher rates of people in higher education than a developing country because we are lucky and richer. Why should this be a bad thing?
Stop people getting higher education and they will not be able to get the kind of social mobility enjoyed by previous generations (often the ones bragging about well paid they are without ever needing a degree or qualifications)
I know there are people with *ahem* chips on their shoulders about education who spout on about how well they did without one, but it's not like that anymore.
You need a nursing degree to be a nurse, are nurses privileged people?
Yes we have higher rates of people in higher education than a developing country because we are lucky and richer. Why should this be a bad thing?
Stop people getting higher education and they will not be able to get the kind of social mobility enjoyed by previous generations (often the ones bragging about well paid they are without ever needing a degree or qualifications)
Balders's philosophy is a simple one: H.E. is elitist, therefore it is the purview of toffs and nobs and he doesn't want his tax spent on it.
The fact that such assumptions are simplistic and incorrect don't matter!
The facts are that. 1 I have never said that it is the purview? of toffs and nobs. 2 Neither have i said i don't want my tax spent on it.
So moving past those lies, it leaves you with the slightly bigger difficulty of the real arguement.
And that has always been from me at least that more more money should be spent on universal education and less on subsidising private and higher education.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
How much should they cut HE spending by then bladie? How much should students have to pay before they can start there courses?
You do realise that doing that will mean that that would make it rather harder for many nurses to qualify to work here, and where are they going to come from then?
(btw, you really dont have any room for complaining about other people telling 'lies' about your views considering how much you lie about other peoples')
You do realise that doing that will mean that that would make it rather harder for many nurses to qualify to work here, and where are they going to come from then?
(btw, you really dont have any room for complaining about other people telling 'lies' about your views considering how much you lie about other peoples')
Have to say this is a good post VP.
The thing is as you know many of the people who have a higher education in developing countries move on to where the money is.
And this process is encouraged by western companies and governments.
From an Internationalist or Socialist view i think you have to look at improving education right across the board not just at the education of a tiny minority.
And no that doesnt mean i am anti all Higher education but neither am i great fan of people trying to pretend that H/E students need even more subsidy than they have now.....
As you know my arguement has always been that anybody who attended a private school should have to pay the full cost of their Higher Education.
1 They should make sure that all H/E students who come from public schools pay the full cost of their higher education at the very least!
2 Perhaps if you loads of Nurses who came from Private Schools.
3 Find ONE SINGLE lie i have told on Urban75 that hasnt been a Joke eg the the time i claimed to have gone to Harrow!!!!!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
So if you want to improve education across the board you restrict certain parts of it to the rich? Pardon?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Everybody clocked that; we all know you were at Eton.
Nope you make the Rich pay more subsidise them less and spend the money on universal education.
Fair point......Cant argue with that.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
so the majority of attendee's pay nowt then?
what?
you frequently make up things i have supposedly said baldie, and you probably also do so with any other poster who really irritates you
No that would be silly unless the vast majority of people went.
But some people would be able to pay less if you got more money off the kind of people who spend £20,000 a year on 14 years of private education and then opt back into the state system for a subisidised higher education.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
...universal education being, surely, allowing people to be educated without being rich?
You can actually learn stuff in HE y'know - quite useful stuff in many cases.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
still awfully vague here. the vast majority of HE students haven't been to public school. How much should they pay? you were pretty much cheering the bosses idea that they should pay 5k a year, or have you changed your mind yet?
1 YES
2 I know that despite some really micky mouse subjects like Law and Medicine etc.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I'm confused now.
Cheering the bosses idea that they should pay £5k a year.........sorry belboid youve totally lost me there......er where?
Maggot
The Cake of Liberty
What has it got to do with the CBI anyway? Why are they telling universities how to run themselves?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8263672.stm
The CBI today proposed measures to move higher education back out of the reach of those who can least afford a university education by proposing students pay higher loan repayment and tuition fee costs.
PS Don't feed the troll.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
You do realise that a lot more than just degree courses are provided by and accredited to Higher Education establishments?
Also, higher education got 'decoupled'* from the private education sector many years ago when the government of the day launched a large-scale expansion of the HE sector to open it up to more than just the 'privileged' with the introduction of the old polytechnics and the open university.
These days HE provision is seen by the majority who work in education as an integral part of a universal education system -and not some rarified stratum of a multi-tier system geared towards maintaining advantage to those who can afford to hold on to it....
Again, i ask you if you work in education... If you do, in what capacity?
*not exactly the right word, but perceptually before this point HE was always seen as the province of the elite. After the introduction of polys and the OU, many people who otherwise wouldn't have given HE a second thought suddenly began to see it as a realistic option -and this was also due in no small measure to students being able to apply for maintenance grants *NOT loans*.
Why do you think thats important?
That can often be a good sign if your learning something new or so i am told.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
Jesus christ.....
1. The vast majority of students that go into FE (6th form/tech/other post-compulsory college) and traditional school 6th form DO want to go to university. FFS most of them are thinking -even in an abstract 'wouldn't it be great if...' kind of way- about their next step educationally within a month of starting FE.
2. Those that can afford private education get charged through the nose to study at a university -they pay full-whack for everything. Which is as it should be.
3. The subsidised positions go to those who can LEAST afford them -i.e. the majority of students moving up to HE from secondary/further education establishments...
Edit to add: I ask, tbaldwin because you clearly haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about. And were you to be working in the education sector then i think it is really bloody important to know -because i'd LOVE to know where you are getting this misinformed drivel you are spouting from. Y'know, stuff like facts, figures, demographics and other such data that you would use to support your inflammatory assertions...
Jesus christ.....
2. Those that can afford private education get charged through the nose to study at a university -they pay full-whack for everything. Which is as it should be.
So they pay the full cost of their HIGHER EDUCATION do they......................................................er yeah right..........
Do you work in Education Nylock do you know how much a H/E place costs?
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