The BNP to control Stoke and Barking and Dagenham Councils within 3-5 years.....

[Vintage Paw]

Because the whole Potteries area is dying, slowly.

Probably because the SP's narrative doesn't tell people what they want to hear, but rather talks about the harsh realities.
The BNP, meanwhile, are retailing a narrative that is telling locals "it'll all be alright if you vote for us".

Absolutely. For all it's 'regeneration' plans, the money that goes into the city goes into things like the expensive "Lock 38" canal side development, and not into anything meaningful. People are systematically being driven out of their homes through compulsory purchase programmes, and communities are consistently being broken up. The lack of work (the Sentinel jobs pages on a Wednesday make pitiful reading these days – agency and call centre jobs a plenty, but little else) coupled with the 'influx' of Poles and other immigrants, and people find it easy to put 2 and 2 together and blame Labour and immigration for the steady erosion of their dignity and way of life.

'Don't vote for the BNP, they're Nazis' means fuck all to people around here – and why would it? The SP don't spin that line, and try to get deeper to the root of the problem with people. But, of course, that is one of the 'harsh realities' that is a difficult pill to swallow by those who have had their 'easy' answer provided to them by the BNP, by the treachery of Labour, and by the slow drip feeding of hate by the media.

 

[glenquagmire]

I saw an SP poster at the bus stop this morning and it did mention the BNP as nazis, fascists etc.

 

[trevhagl]

It's sad times when being nazis doesn't mater to people.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I saw an SP poster at the bus stop this morning and it did mention the BNP as nazis, fascists etc.

In Stoke?

Of course they 'mention' them. Ignoring their existence would be ridiculous.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Because the whole Potteries area is dying, slowly.

Its a parallel with Dagenham really. With the major employer going an area drops like a stone in terms of prosperity.

Probably because the SP's narrative doesn't tell people what they want to hear, but rather talks about the harsh realities.
The BNP, meanwhile, are retailing a narrative that is telling locals "it'll all be alright if you vote for us".

Agree there. Angry dispossesd people are much more likely to veer towards simplisitic solutions.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The line has to be drawn, KJ. Keep voting Tory because you 'need to remove a dodgy wanker' (I'm not talking about Boris, I'm sticking to Stoke) and there won't be that effective party in 10 years time to save us all. I don't like cunt x so I'll vote for cunt y, and in the mean time the people who might provide the only viable alternative in the long run are set back yet again because cunt y gets in and support is diverted away. That really isn't a sensible way to go about things.

I agree its not a long term solution but sometimes you just have to pick the turd that smells the least.

I've seen so many failiures over the years. New parties and small groups that have started up with a messianic fervour only to dissolve in acrimony and discord that many people including myself don't believe that these 'alternatives' provide any hope at all.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So let's stop trying?

 

[glenquagmire]

In Stoke?

Of course they 'mention' them. Ignoring their existence would be ridiculous.

Not in Stoke. I didn't realise the message was different depending on the location. I wasn't suggesting ignoring them, rather that the message on the poster was of the "Don't vote for the BNP, they're Nazis" line which you ridiculed.

Not having a pop unnecessarily. The SP line on the racism and the BNP is pretty good compared to other groups.

 

[dennisr]

I agree its not a long term solution but sometimes you just have to pick the turd that smells the least.

I've seen so many failiures over the years. New parties and small groups that have started up with a messianic fervour only to dissolve in acrimony and discord that many people including myself don't believe that these 'alternatives' provide any hope at all.

so you vote tory....

(you will notice that this little stumbling block which i am afraid i have to keep coming back to sits rather poorly with your more sensible comments)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Absolutely. For all it's 'regeneration' plans, the money that goes into the city goes into things like the expensive "Lock 38" canal side development, and not into anything meaningful. People are systematically being driven out of their homes through compulsory purchase programmes, and communities are consistently being broken up. The lack of work (the Sentinel jobs pages on a Wednesday make pitiful reading these days – agency and call centre jobs a plenty, but little else) coupled with the 'influx' of Poles and other immigrants, and people find it easy to put 2 and 2 together and blame Labour and immigration for the steady erosion of their dignity and way of life.

Same old same old, isn't it? The monied classes survive off of the suffering of the working classes, and then manage to divert the blame to causes which are, at best, peripheral.
Then again, it's easier to target a scapegoat than to realise you've been played for a fool by the political classes and their friends.
I find the way that the Potteries is decaying really sad. Not just because of the big companies that have gone, but all that skill too. My paternal great-great grandad was a journeyman potter, but even 120 years ago spent more time working out of the industry than in it.

'Don't vote for the BNP, they're Nazis' means fuck all to people around here – and why would it?

Absolutely. It's irrelevant to them, say "don't vote for the BNP because their policies are racist" and/or "don't vote for them because there's no earthly way for them to fulfil any pledges they've made", or even "don't vote for them because while their spiel about immigration appears correct, a shufty at the facts reveals it isn't", but the emotive "Nazi BNP" schtick means nowt.

The SP don't spin that line, and try to get deeper to the root of the problem with people. But, of course, that is one of the 'harsh realities' that is a difficult pill to swallow by those who have had their 'easy' answer provided to them by the BNP, by the treachery of Labour, and by the slow drip feeding of hate by the media.

All of which serves the same purpose: Divide and conquer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its a parallel with Dagenham really. With the major employer going an area drops like a stone in terms of prosperity.

There's a very big difference, IMHO, which is that Stoke and it's environs have been dying for a century, the work base contracting slowly but surely with occasional spurts of large-scale redundancy. It's amulti-generaltional fact of life tht's ground the fight out of ome of the people over a long time. Dagenham, by comparison, has only really had problems for the last 20 years, and most of them are tied to the fact that Dagenham was basically a "service suburb" for Ford, whereas the Potteries housed an entire industry. Dagenham could be saved by another large-scale employer, Stoke probably couldn't.

 

[dennisr]

Not in Stoke. I didn't realise the message was different depending on the location. I wasn't suggesting ignoring them, rather that the message on the poster was of the "Don't vote for the BNP, they're Nazis" line which you ridiculed.

Not having a pop unnecessarily. The SP line on the racism and the BNP is pretty good compared to other groups.

And they haven't produced 'nazi' posters in a long while in the UK (they have used racist recently (personally I go more for the 'lies and lack of answers' line VP pointed to) - probably some excited newer member got hold of some old posters and put them up.

it isn't the 'public line' and has not been for a long while.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so you vote tory....

...which isn't a solution because it perpetuates the base problems that are the cause of a rising BNP vote, rather than dealing with/addressing them.
I can't see how he fails to "get" that.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Not in Stoke. I didn't realise the message was different depending on the location. I wasn't suggesting ignoring them, rather that the message on the poster was of the "Don't vote for the BNP, they're Nazis" line which you ridiculed.

Not having a pop unnecessarily. The SP line on the racism and the BNP is pretty good compared to other groups.

I think VP's suggestion of other things to say in the post below yours comes closer to what the SP do to try to engage with people around here. I can't comment about other branches, because I don't have any experience of them (I'm not an SP member, btw, I just happen to be very close to them here in Stoke). What I was refering to by the "BNP are Nazis" line is just that – NORSCARF (and the other parties) tend to go no further and don't offer up any reasons for why the BNP are the threat they are. Which renders them impotent and irrelevent.

 

[poster342002]

double-post due to stupid cookied-to-death software that keeps logging me out all the fucking time

 

[Vintage Paw]

And London is also going this way now that our ex-mayor suceedded in getting the olympics foisted on us without actually asking the communities that'd be affetced if they wanted them. Big fucking 'thank-you' there, Ken.

It's going on everywhere – but not everyone has an internationally recognised event to give it publicity.

 

[dennisr]

And London is also going this way now that our ex-mayor suceedded in getting the olympics foisted on us without actually asking the communities that'd be affetced if they wanted them. Big fucking 'thank-you' there, Ken.

they were doing it long before the olympics in many boroughs

don't get poster - get back at them, better still get even

 

[Vintage Paw]

...which isn't a solution because it perpetuates the base problems that are the cause of a rising BNP vote, rather than dealing with/addressing them.
I can't see how he fails to "get" that.

Yep. It's pretty simple in my mind.

 

[poster342002]

People are systematically being driven out of their homes through compulsory purchase programmes, and communities are consistently being broken up.

And London is also going this way now that our ex-mayor suceedded in getting the olympics foisted on us without actually asking the communities that'd be affetced if they wanted them. Big fucking 'thank-you' there, Ken.

The left was deafeningly silient over the olympics (or, worse, went along with the fuckwitted London jingoism that helped get us stuck with them) whilst the BNP made a pledge to scrap the bid as part of their manifesto.

See how the left misses the plot and ends up shooting itself in the foot while the far-right taps into this very real bread-and-butter issue?

 

[poster342002]

they were doing it long before the olympics in many boroughs

Sure, but was it really necessary to get the sodding games on top of all that?

Never mind. Be PROUD! Lond ... ON! Lond ... ON! Lond ... ON!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

...which isn't a solution because it perpetuates the base problems that are the cause of a rising BNP vote, rather than dealing with/addressing them.
I can't see how he fails to "get" that.

What it boils down to is I'm fed up with banging my head against a wall, fed up with seeing yet another failed/corrupted group / party say 'follow us it will all be better'.

I think that the only way you can progress is work for justice / your local community as best you can, give charity/help where you can, look after your family and yourself and not concern yourself about the bigger picture because after all you can't change it to any appreciable degree. The best you can hope for is reform over time. Revolutions and guff like that are jus false messiahs, will-o-the-wisps and no more.

 

[dennisr]

The left was deafeningly silient over the olympics (or, worse, went along with the fuckwitted London jingoism that helped get us stuck with them) whilst the BNP made a pledge to scrap the bid as part of their manifesto.

See how the left misses the plot and ends up shooting itself in the foot?

you get cannot help yourself can you - show the fella some human respect and he turns on the same old crap.

what the fuck have 'the left' got to do with this

you are just and a bit of a daft ranty cunt, aintcha poster?

 

[dennisr]

What it boils down to is I'm fed up with banging my head against a wall, fed up with seeing yet another failed/corrupted group / party say 'follow us it will all be better'

... so i'll vote for a tory fuckwit










(think of me as your concience - if you have one)

 

[poster342002]

what the fuck have 'the left' got to do with this?

Well where were they while all the fucking "back the bid" shite was being forced down our throats? Staying silent for fear of upsetting their hero Ken, that's where.

 

[dennisr]

KJ and posterDURRRMADANGRY are here to destroy any sensible debate

example thread number 101

 

[Louis MacNeice]

What it boils down to is I'm fed up with banging my head against a wall, fed up with seeing yet another failed/corrupted group / party say 'follow us it will all be better'.

I think that the only way you can progress is work for justice / your local community as best you can, give charity/help where you can, look after your family and yourself and not concern yourself about the bigger picture because after all you can't change it to any appreciable degree. The best you can hope for is reform over time. Revolutions and guff like that are jus false messiahs, will-o-the-wisps and no more.

"[Society]There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour..."

You're in 'good' company KBJ.

Louis MacNeice

 

[dennisr]

Well where were they while all the fucking "back the bid" shite was being forced down our throats? Staying silent for fear of upsetting their hero Ken, that's where.

where, you stupid cunt?

you may not have noticed but the media you rely upon for you view of the 'left' are the same one's that keep us silenced to a great extent for most of the time (that not a complaint - just the expression of a simple fact)

in Ireland the irish people have just had a huge vote against the bosses EU. The Socialist Party in ireland (and Joe Higgins) played a central role in getting that vote - you won't know about that role because your impression will be that presented by the media of only some weird right-wing groups who also played a role in the no vote.

you will believe the continuing subtexts that are: 'it is all hopeless', its all reactionary', 'there is nothing one can do' etc etc and will continue to do nothing - exactly as they wanted you to

try not to make things up

 

[Vintage Paw]

What it boils down to is I'm fed up with banging my head against a wall, fed up with seeing yet another failed/corrupted group / party say 'follow us it will all be better'.

I think that the only way you can progress is work for justice / your local community as best you can, give charity/help where you can, look after your family and yourself and not concern yourself about the bigger picture because after all you can't change it to any appreciable degree. The best you can hope for is reform over time. Revolutions and guff like that are jus false messiahs, will-o-the-wisps and no more.

That's a very sad attitude to have I agree with working in local communities as absolutely crucial, but as for the rest, you'll be forever looking for another sticking plaster. It's that attitude that makes it so bloody difficult to work towards a solution of the cause, rather than desperately trying to patch up when the next thing goes wrong.

 

[poster342002]

where, you stupid cunt?

try not to make things up

Where were the left during the "back the bid" drivel? Apart from the no2012 campaign (not sure who organised that), what they hell did the left have to say on the matter? Bugger all from what I remember.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Well where were they while all the fucking "back the bid" shite was being forced down our throats? Staying silent for fear of upsetting their hero Ken, that's where.

I think if the major left groups had not kept schtum over the Olympics and had made a bit more noise about the problems it is causing then things may have been different.

i was visiting some freinds in East Ham recently and these relatively apolitical people are lining up to vote BNP on the grounds that they've been saddled with this Olympic guff but none of them are getting any benefit out of it. All the jobs are going to foreigners imported specially to work on the Olympic park. All the guff that Newham council said about 'Jobs for Newham people' has turned out to be as expected a load of lies.