The BNP to control Stoke and Barking and Dagenham Councils within 3-5 years.....

[dennisr]

As much as the left scream that 'its all lies' and it is desparate people are more likely to support the fash than non desparate people.

as a desperate person yourself - what's your 'scream' on the matter?
(apart from vote tory that is...)

i like to hear it from the horse's mouth

 

[KeyboardJockey]

as a desperate person yourself - what's your 'scream' on the matter?
(apart from vote tory that is...)

i like to hear it from the horse's mouth

I'm not that desparate that I'd vote or support the bnp. However, there are lot of people who have been in the lower middle class and upper working class who may have taken very little interest in politics who may suddenly find themselves having to avail themselves of a piss poor benefits and social support system who may because of their reduced circumstances be vunerable to the blandishments of the bnp.

This is not the 50's or the 70's. There isn't the raw shared knowledge of Nazi atrocities which kept down the support for the fash in the 50's and there is no longer the in depth knowledge of politics that abounded in the 1970's. People ARE more vunerable now to those who can point to scapegoats for their problems.

I'd like to share your enthusiasm that reduced circumstances makes people more communally minded but that is not always the case. Fear can make people irrational.

 

[dennisr]

I'd like to share your enthusiasm that reduced circumstances makes people more communally minded but that is not always the case. Fear can make people irrational.

where did i express such enthusiam?

or is that something else that happens only in your head. if you want to find answers - one of the first things you need to do is to seperate 'your thoughts' from 'what is actually going on around you'. once you get that right you can then move on to the more complex questions of how to cut across the bnp

 

[KeyboardJockey]

where did i express such enthusiam?

I know you didn't but I was expressing an observation.

or is that something else that happens only in your head. if you want to find answers - one of the first things you need to do is to seperate 'your thoughts' from 'what is actually going on around you'. once you get that right you can then move on to the more complex questions of how to cut across the bnp

I've seen the fash at close quarters, listened to them and even at points had them in my own family. When you know a little of how they think you can see how they will explot certain things.

 

[treelover]

KJ said
'I'm not that desparate that I'd vote or support the bnp. However, there are lot of people who have been in the lower middle class and upper working class who may have taken very little interest in politics who may suddenly find themselves having to avail themselves of a piss poor benefits and social support system who may because of their reduced circumstances be vunerable to the blandishments of the bnp.'


Wait until the welfare reforms kick in, and people are hounded off benefits, maybe whole families, they are going to be smarting and looking for answers, scapegoats, etc. I suspect the policies of the Thirties are going to engender the politics of the Thirties!

 

[trevhagl]

KJ said
'I'm not that desparate that I'd vote or support the bnp. However, there are lot of people who have been in the lower middle class and upper working class who may have taken very little interest in politics who may suddenly find themselves having to avail themselves of a piss poor benefits and social support system who may because of their reduced circumstances be vunerable to the blandishments of the bnp.'


Wait until the welfare reforms kick in, and people are hounded off benefits, maybe whole families, they are going to be smarting and looking for answers, scapegoats, etc. I suspect the policies of the Thirties are going to engender the politics of the Thirties!

Aye thats right and the irony is that the BNP would scrap the whole welfare state. That wouldn't stop charvers voting for em though. People can't see further than the end of their nose

 

[treelover]

Dennis, will you stop trying to 'psychologise' people genuine fears about the future, people don't have 'issues' just because they don't agree with your optimism, etc. You have done this to Poster and others on a number of occassion, saying he is depressed etc, it is unpleasant and sadly speaks volumes about certain proclivities of the far left, eg, you are not the only one.

 

[dennisr]

I know you didn't but I was expressing an observation.

an observation is something based on something you have seen/heard/read etc - so that was not an observation cos i haven't said, spoken or written it

I've seen the fash at close quarters, listened to them and even at points had them in my own family. When you know a little of how they think you can see how they will explot certain things.

yep, thats insightful, personally I live in a fantasy world, thanks to my servant jeeves I have little contact with the unwashed masses especially the more prolatarian. I use a hankerchief covering the reciever when talking over the phone to the working class builder who claims to be my father (I think he is just after my money...) and his brothers and the rest of my large pikey family and asocciated oiks

i have also reached a stage where i find it hard to treat some of you oiks seriously - or it may just be you i have a problem with

 

[dennisr]

Dennis, will you stop trying to 'psychologise' people genuine fears about the future, people don't have 'issues' just because they don't agree with your optimism, etc. You have done this to Poster and others on a number of occassion, saying he is depressed etc, it is unpleasant and sadly speaks volumes about certain proclivities of the far left, eg, you are not the only one.

oh fuck off - call a horse a horse - especially when it spends months neighing so as to prove the point.

stop hiding behind liberal crap - its got fuck all to do with 'the proclavities of the far left' and everything to do with a couple of individuals boring the shite out of countless people with their unremittingly, tedious, 'its all hopeless' crap

'psychologise' - I cannot even spell the word (i had to copy and paste yours) what are you going on about? why not take the tedious fucks you feel you have to defend from the simple facts and have a word with them if you real 'care' so much.

who am i offending? and what am i offending by stating the obvious??? (as you come out with this rubbish every so often - i suppose its times you actually try and explain what you are talking about...)

ps 'optimistic' - me!!!! - stop psycologising me, man, or i'll scweem and scweem

 

[Vintage Paw]

One of the iros of Stoke politics is that whilst the SP in Stoke struggle with meagre resources the SoT mayor, Mark Meredith, is a former Militant (SP forerunner) full-timer back when I joined the Militant.

I was active in the old MT with people now very active in the SP in Stoke.

Yeah, I know. I think Meredith is going to find it quite difficult to hold his position next year, despite his 'long term vision' (which started with Mike Wolf before him, who, incidentally, has himself a cushy little consultancy job now).

A consolidated left in Stoke really would be the only way to provide an alternative for people, but I can't see it happening any time soon. The SP got a fabulous response on the doorstep in April/May (despite one guy saying he would vote BNP, until it was pointed out they weren't standing in that ward ), and people are receptive to them. But, again, it's the resources and the lack of a full-timer or two (coupled with the fuckwitted sepratisim across much of the left that won't work together).

I know all the Stoke SPers well, including the longest standing guy (who I assume you know from your Militant days), and his dedication is quite remarkable. They deserve a full-timer (in fact they deserve several), especially now.

 

[trevhagl]

Yeah, I know. I think Meredith is going to find it quite difficult to hold his position next year, despite his 'long term vision' (which started with Mike Wolf before him, who, incidentally, has himself a cushy little consultancy job now).

A consolidated left in Stoke really would be the only way to provide an alternative for people, but I can't see it happening any time soon. The SP got a fabulous response on the doorstep in April/May (despite one guy saying he would vote BNP, until it was pointed out they weren't standing in that ward ), and people are receptive to them. But, again, it's the resources and the lack of a full-timer or two (coupled with the fuckwitted sepratisim across much of the left that won't work together).

I know all the Stoke SPers well, including the longest standing guy (who I assume you know from your Militant days), and his dedication is quite remarkable. They deserve a full-timer (in fact they deserve several), especially now.

Totally. If the left spent as much time fighting the real enemy as each other who knows what could happen?

 

[dennisr]

(as you come out with this rubbish every so often - i suppose its times you actually try and explain what you are talking about...

come on - seriously - treelover - explain yourself

you really piss me off with this rubbish.

if you had even the slightest iota of what i have personally been through and am going through when it comes to genuinely supporting genuine people with mental health and all the resulting 'issues' you would be keeping your assumptions to yourself

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Wait until the welfare reforms kick in, and people are hounded off benefits, maybe whole families, they are going to be smarting and looking for answers, scapegoats, etc. I suspect the policies of the Thirties are going to engender the politics of the Thirties!

That is going to be the 'killer app' that will boost the bnp. In previous times when the economy was running well it was easier for the majority to dismiss the problems with the benefits and social care systems as nothing to do with them but when these people start to experience it for them selves I don't think they will be politically astute or educated enough to see where the real problems lie and will fall behind those offering simplistic solutions.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

an observation is something based on something you have seen/heard/read etc - so that was not an observation cos i haven't said, spoken or written it

I believe I inserted a 'your' when I shouldn't have done and for that I put my hands up. But you do seenm to be one of those who believe that communal organisation is the sole answer and it may well be for the long term but the short to medium term is a different matter.

yep, thats insightful, personally I live in a fantasy world, thanks to my servant jeeves I have little contact with the unwashed masses especially the more prolatarian. I use a hankerchief covering the reciever when talking over the phone to the working class builder who claims to be my father (I think he is just after my money...) and his brothers and the rest of my large pikey family and asocciated oiks

i have also reached a stage where i find it hard to treat some of you oiks seriously - or it may just be you i have a problem with

what the fuck are you gabbing on about?

 

[dennisr]

Totally. If the left spent as much time fighting the real enemy as each other who knows what could happen?

The Stoke SP have spent no time at all fighting 'other lefts' - they have spend a very long time and a lot of effort providing solid support for local posties facing victimisation and countless other campaigns. The SP candidate in the recent election was a postie

'fighting each other' is what happens here among the internet left. Read the post you are replying to again.

 

[dennisr]

what the fuck are you gabbing on about?

the subtext runs something along the lines of:

"yes, i know what the mood among working class people is, thanks"

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The Stoke SP have spent no time at all fighting 'other lefts' - they have spend a very long time and a lot of effort providing solid support for local posties facing victimisation and countless other campaigns. The SP candidate in the recent election was a postie

'fighting each other' is what happens here among the internet left. Read the post you are replying to again.

If Stoke SP is kicking arse like you say they are why are the fash doing so well in Stoke?

Doesn't look to me that the SP is a viable alternative to the fash in many peoples minds there does it?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

the subtext runs something along the lines of:

"yes, i know what the mood among working class people is, thanks"

 

[Vintage Paw]

The Stoke SP have spent no time at all fighting 'other lefts' - they have spend a very long time and a lot of effort providing solid support for local posties facing victimisation and countless other campaigns. The SP candidate in the recent election was a postie

Quite right.

I think what was clear from the NHS campaign a couple of years ago was that even left-leaning people, either from other parties or non-affiliated, were not prepared to work with the SP. To be fair, it was a very tough campaign, and there was a lot of shit from the local Unison rep from the hospital (who was also a labour member), but at times it felt eerily like "we don't want to be affiliated with the SP".

It was maddeningly frustrating, especially since the SP drove that campaign.

 

[dennisr]

But you do seem to be....

Yes, I 'seem to be' in your head maybe - because that is what you decided in advance

its a small point but a pertinant one

 

[Vintage Paw]

If Stoke SP is kicking arse like you say they are why are the fash doing so well in Stoke?

Doesn't look to me that the SP is a viable alternative to the fash in many peoples minds there does it?

He didn't say they were kicking arse, did he? I know personally that they are well received when out and about every week, that they did provide a hell of a lot of support for the Burslem 12, and that they have got a small, but loyal, base out there. Sadly, it isn't enough to come up against the BNP in any effective way at the moment. They are in for the long hard slog though, and aren't about to give up trying.

 

[dennisr]

If Stoke SP is kicking arse like you say they are why are the fash doing so well in Stoke?

Doesn't look to me that the SP is a viable alternative to the fash in many peoples minds there does it?

Again let me spell this out for you

I. have. not. said. the. SP. in. stoke. is. kicking. fuck. all.

all i said was that it had not spent any time at all attacking the rest of the left as another poster assumed

the reasons are already better discussed by other posters from stoke on this thread. All I can add is that the SPs limited resources and time are better not all thrown at occasional elections once every few years but put into the important local campaigns being steadily built up which are the only long term (and they are not electoral...) answer to the growth of electoral support for the bnp in stoke because it is these campaigns that will expose the bnp in the eyes of its potential electorate. the sp is already punching above its relative weight on the ground where the bnp actually do exist - unlike ejets such as you who use the distant excuse of the 'bnp threat' to stand around like headless chickens waiting to be slaughtered.

Of course what you really want to say is 'the left is hopeless', 'its got no chance', 'vote for boris '- don't you??

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yes, I 'seem to be' in your head maybe - because that is what you decided in advance

its a small point but a pertinant one

Dennisr, I've tried to engage with you. When I've said something that has been misconstruced such as the misplaced word 'your' I've noticed it and acknowledged it on here. I've accepted that the SP is not the main promoter of the failed policy of identity politics. Sadly you don't seem to be engaging with the experiences that others have had especially regarding with the fash. Sarcasm is no substitute for listening.

OK I know you don't like the fact that I'm a temporary Tory but ffs a whole load of people are going to be temporary Tories at the next election or sadly far far worse. This thread is symptomatic of why the bnp are doing so well and are going to scarily do far better. No other party is giving people seeming solutions that put the people in distress first. Yes I know its a lie that they are putting out but just becuase you and I can see through the lie doesn't mean that others will think the same.

I'm not going to get pissed off I'm just going to stick you on ignore for a bit. Bye.

 

[Vintage Paw]

You can't magic up a left-wing party with the resources and history of the Tories overnight, KJ. The SP are fighting the long battle. They have to plod along, one step at a time, and it's only through that that they will grow. They work on the ground, with local people on local issues and campaigns. They can't fight every campaign because they, again, don't have the resources. They have to pick the campaigns they can throw their weight behind, and when they do they give it 100% and end up with a lot of support.

They still don't have the amount of members necessary to stand someone in opposition to each BNP standing, let alone someone in every ward, and they barely have the resources to mount an effective campaign when standing one or two people. That's not for want of trying – it is, like I said, a bit of a catch-22 situation that can only be remedied by their continued slogging, and by other people thinking about the long term and giving them their support. A quick vote for the Tories because there isn't another viable party, in your eyes, doesn't help anything in the long term. It only cements the short to medium term problem.

 

[dennisr]

I've tried to engage with you ... Sarcasm is no substitute for listening ... 'm not going to get pissed off I'm just going to stick you on ignore for a bit. Bye.

yawn.

now who is sticking their fingers in their ears???

where have you ever 'engaged' with anyone?

what insights am i supposed to be listening too?

you have come out with nothing - not one single thing

you have 'genorously' conceded a number of points you made up in the first place - I thank you for your condecension

maybe you can agree that voting for boris was - far from being an 'understandable' position to take - an almighty and idiotic fuck up and has taken us even further from finding any solutions to either the growth of the bnp or the situation working class people are increasingly facing. At that point I will again try and take you seriously.

sarcasm is all i have left in the face of months of idiocy i am afraid

 

[dennisr]

a note: *dennisr's saintlike feckin patience is in short supply today - he would like to apologise for any offense caused (unless deserved...)*

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You can't magic up a left-wing party with the resources and history of the Tories overnight, KJ. The SP are fighting the long battle. They have to plod along, one step at a time, and it's only through that that they will grow. They work on the ground, with local people on local issues and campaigns. They can't fight every campaign because they, again, don't have the resources. They have to pick the campaigns they can throw their weight behind, and when they do they give it 100% and end up with a lot of support.

They still don't have the amount of members necessary to stand someone in opposition to each BNP standing, let alone someone in every ward, and they barely have the resources to mount an effective campaign when standing one or two people. That's not for want of trying – it is, like I said, a bit of a catch-22 situation that can only be remedied by their continued slogging, and by other people thinking about the long term and giving them their support. A quick vote for the Tories because there isn't another viable party, in your eyes, doesn't help anything in the long term. It only cements the short to medium term problem.

I agree with you that you can't build an effect left party overnight. But what about the situation where you need to remove a corrupt or a dangerous NL councillor / MP or other official? Then it is justified in the short term to vote Tory.

This corrupt or dodgy official needs removing NOW not in ten years time .

Leaving a dodgy wanker in place may do more damage than having a tory for a while.

 

[dennisr]

I agree with you that you can't build an effect left party overnight. But what about the situation where you need to remove a corrupt or a dangerous NL councillor / MP or other official? Then it is justified in the short term to vote Tory.

This corrupt or dodgy official needs removing NOW not in ten years time .

Leaving a dodgy wanker in place may do more damage than having a tory for a while.

This post jointly wins both "desperate attempt at legitimising own cockup post of the year" 2008 and the much sought after* "fantasy politics post of the year" 2008

* sorry attica but its a case of quality over quantity i am afraid

 

[Vintage Paw]

The line has to be drawn, KJ. Keep voting Tory because you 'need to remove a dodgy wanker' (I'm not talking about Boris, I'm sticking to Stoke) and there won't be that effective party in 10 years time to save us all. I don't like cunt x so I'll vote for cunt y, and in the mean time the people who might provide the only viable alternative in the long run are set back yet again because cunt y gets in and support is diverted away. That really isn't a sensible way to go about things.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If Stoke SP is kicking arse like you say they are why are the fash doing so well in Stoke?

Because the whole Potteries area is dying, slowly.

Doesn't look to me that the SP is a viable alternative to the fash in many peoples minds there does it?

Probably because the SP's narrative doesn't tell people what they want to hear, but rather talks about the harsh realities.
The BNP, meanwhile, are retailing a narrative that is telling locals "it'll all be alright if you vote for us".