The BNP in the European Parliament

[CyberRose]

It's a shit House of Lords with an unelected commons.

Would your opinion change if Commissioners were elected? Or if they did create an EU President that was elected?

 

[butchersapron]

Or...why are you defending an unelected commons?

 

[CyberRose]

Jusrt correct him and say it's the Commision.

Obviously the Commission has a vast amount of power but nothing can come into law without the say-so of the Parliament (not even an alliance between the Commission and the Council can change that)

 

[CyberRose]

Or...why are you defending an unelected commons?

Well I prefer to see the end product rather than how it was made!

I don't particularly have a problem with elected Commissioners (don't think a President would be a good idea tho) and it would perhaps install a lot of confidence in the EU which is sorely missing

As to why I "defend" it, it's simply I think the EU is a good idea...

 

[butchersapron]

That doesn't answwer my question.

But, FTC the unelected Commission is the one who introduces legialation - not the people we vote for.

 

[butchersapron]

Well I prefer to see the end product rather than how it was made!

I don't particularly have a problem with elected Commissioners (don't think a President would be a good idea tho) and it would perhaps install a lot of confidence in the EU which is sorely missing

As to why I "defend" it, it's simply I think the EU is a good idea...

Here the EU arrogance in full effect - i think it's a good idea. Don't care what you lot think, don't care about democracy - we're doing it whatever. Fuck you.

And you then blame peoploe being anti-eu on them being thick!

 

[frogwoman]

So if there was a bit of legislation the BNP didn't like, would the "identity, tradition, sovereignty" block be a powerful enough block to influence a bill being passed or not? How many seats, in total, do overtyly "fascist" parties have?

Is that basically the extent of their influence?

 

[butchersapron]

They wouldn't even be able to do that.

 

[elbows]

The real power rests with the Council of Ministers aka Council of the European Union NOT with the European Parliament.

Well that really means most of the power is located there, the parliaments power is still real, just limited. Decisions made there have some sort of effect on policy, even if it is just some of the small details, the devil is often in the detail so this still matters sometimes.

I would guess there is only very limited scope for ideological beliefs of the parties to really affect the overall ideology of the EU, and its direction is not set by them, so it is easy to see why people dismiss them as irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things it is not crucial but you never know, it may have its moments where it has a real impact.

 

[frogwoman]

They wouldn't even be able to do that.

((((((bnp)))))))

 

[CyberRose]

That doesn't answwer my question.

But, FTC the unelected Commission is the one who introduces legialation - not the people we vote for.

Yes I said the Commission proposes legislation in my first post

Here the EU arrogance in full effect - i think it's a good idea. Don't care what you lot think, don't care about democracy - we're doing it whatever. Fuck you.

And you then blame peoploe being anti-eu on them being thick!

In the vast majority of threads in this forum you're one person who usually talks a hell of a lot of sense, yet when it comes to the EU for some reason you just see red and go off on one

I said "I think the EU is a good idea" and look at the tirade you came out with in response! Not really necessary was it and doesn't exactly make your arguments stronger does it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a shit House of Lords with an unelected commons.

This is a good description.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes I said the Commission proposes legislation in my first post


In the vast majority of threads in this forum you're one person who usually talks a hell of a lot of sense, yet when it comes to the EU for some reason you just see red and go off on one

I said "I think the EU is a good idea" and look at the tirade you came out with in response! Not really necessary was it and doesn't exactly make your arguments stronger does it?

I think i talk for england.

 

[frogwoman]

They wouldn't even be able to do that.

Butchers, what do you think of the No2EU's idea whereby they would not take up their seats in the EU (if they got in)

do you think that's a strategy with a reasonable chance of having some kind of impact? i thought it wasn't a bad plan tbf

 

[butchersapron]

Yes I said the Commission proposes legislation in my first post


In the vast majority of threads in this forum you're one person who usually talks a hell of a lot of sense, yet when it comes to the EU for some reason you just see red and go off on one

I said "I think the EU is a good idea" and look at the tirade you came out with in response! Not really necessary was it and doesn't exactly make your arguments stronger does it?

I do fucking hate the EU mind

 

[CyberRose]

Well that really means most of the power is located there, the parliaments power is still real, just limited. Decisions made there have some sort of effect on policy, even if it is just some of the small details, the devil is often in the detail so this still matters sometimes.

They have exactly the same amount of power as the Council! They have to vote and agree to every bit of EU legislation otherwise it gets thrown in the bin!

I would guess there is only very limited scope for ideological beliefs of the parties to really affect the overall ideology of the EU, and its direction is not set by them, so it is easy to see why people dismiss them as irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things it is not crucial but you never know, it may have its moments where it has a real impact.

The Parliament is very ideological a hell of a lot more so than our national Parliament. The Parliament very often goes against governments (who a lot of the time are pro-business) for example the working time directive. The Council wanted to change it to be more business friendly but the Parliament refused.

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers, what do you think of the No2EU's idea whereby they would not take up their seats in the EU (if they got in)

do you think that's a strategy with a reasonable chance of having some kind of impact? i thought it wasn't a bad plan tbf

I think they can say anything if they're not picking up seats. It should be standard for left groups. The greans should be doing that here and now and i know Matt S has been trying to push that idea...

 

[CyberRose]

I think i talk for england.

But that's because they're all THICK!

I do fucking hate the EU mind

Ah don't worry, the EU still loves you and is constantly looking out for your best interests to protect you from evil mega-corporations!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Parliament is very ideological a hell of a lot more so than our national Parliament. The Parliament very often goes against governments (who a lot of the time are pro-business) for example the working time directive. The Council wanted to change it to be more business friendly but the Parliament refused.

In other words, they have the power to hold back some of the worst capitalist excesses of the Council. What they can't do is change the fact that the EU is a thoroughgoing capitalist project that locks its members into certain capitalist notions.

We have no choice over the capitalist nature of the EU. It has been decided for us.

 

[ChocolateTeapot]

So if there was a bit of legislation the BNP didn't like, would the "identity, tradition, sovereignty" block be a powerful enough block to influence a bill being passed or not? How many seats, in total, do overtyly "fascist" parties have?

Is that basically the extent of their influence?

Not a lot, is probably the answer: the umbrella group that is the far right in the EU parliament shifts around quite a lot, not helped by the basic fact that a lot of them don't even agree with the existence of the body they have been elected to serve in - never stops their expenses claims though.

 

[claphamboy]

But if they are equal legislatures how are you able to make that statement?

When did that change and do you have a link?

As far as the legislative branch of the EU is concerned I was under the impression the council was higher than the parliament in the pecking order and had the real power out of the two.

 

[butchersapron]

I suppose we'll know how well or how badly they've done in a couple of hours when they release the exit polls

Nope, no exit polls allowed to be released until sunday night 9pm.

 

[elbows]

Here the EU arrogance in full effect - i think it's a good idea. Don't care what you lot think, don't care about democracy - we're doing it whatever. Fuck you.

And you then blame peoploe being anti-eu on them being thick!

For me the EU has always seemed like a good idea comapred to Europe having wars with itself, but beyond that the project is rather tainted by the nature of the economic systems & ideological beliefs that have prevailed in recent decades.

Rather a lot of the business of the EU is about harmonising things so that its easier for businesses to work across the whole area. And its there to give us some clout on the international stage, to scale up to the other big powers in the world.

Democracy, sovereignty, etc are bound to diminish whenever you enter into a collaboration with other parties and have to compromise to get agreement on decisions. Collaboration and compromise is essential for reasonable human existence, but as with national and local politics, the compromises reached are flawed because of wider inequalities, eg you may end up with compromise between the stances of only various powerful people, with relatively powerless people playing little part, but paying the price.

Even those who start off as suitable to represent the masses, will struggle to do a great job because they will be thrust into a world of very different priorities, if they engage with the system they will inevitably end up seeing things a bit differently, if they stick to their original stance they will not usually not be able to harness their power. Sometimes opportunities, big moments, winds of change, new momentums come along and people get in a position to take advantage, but this has hardly happened much in my lifetime. With everything going on at the moment there is a sense that almost anything could be possible if events keep taking turns for the worse. Nobody quite knows where the breaking point is, and so many people still have so much left to lose that I dont bet on huge change in coming years, though I wouldnt bet all that much against it either.

 

[CyberRose]

In other words, they have the power to hold back some of the worst capitalist excesses of the Council. What they can't do is change the fact that the EU is a thoroughgoing capitalist project that locks its members into certain capitalist notions.

We have no choice over the capitalist nature of the EU. It has been decided for us.

That's not an issue that is unique to the EU tho is it?

You could say the same about the British Parliament. It reflects those that hold power inside it. If we elected all Communists to the British Parliament, then the laws it made would be Communist (please don't anyone get technical with me about whether or not they actually would be Communists if they took part in elections or controlled the House of Commons!!)

Likewise with the EU, if all the governments of Europe were left wing and we elected left wing MEPs then the laws would also be left wing

Right now in our world we have 'capitalist' friendly governments so it goes without saying the laws are also capitalist friendly, whether that's in Europe or UK (altho the European right is considerably more to the left than our Conservatives, and the European left is a lot more left than our Labour Party, meaning the European Parliament is a lot more left than you'd imagine)

 

[butchersapron]

Yes ther EU is neutral body just waiting to be used. Even you don't believe this.

 

[claphamboy]

Nope, no exit polls allowed to be released until sunday night 9pm.

This bugs me, if it's OK for the Dutch why not us?

The Dutch government will give preliminary results from the vote on Thursday, but other countries will wait until Sunday evening.

BBC link

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right now in our world we have 'capitalist' friendly governments so it goes without saying the laws are also capitalist friendly, whether that's in Europe or UK (altho the European right is considerably more to the left than our Conservatives, and the European left is a lot more left than our Labour Party, meaning the European Parliament is a lot more left than you'd imagine)

I prefer the EU's version of capitalism to the Thatcher/Blair version. It is hugely preferable and the EU has acted as a brake on the brutal capitalist tendencies of recent UK governments. If the UK is to remain capitalist I'd prefer it to be in the Eurozone and tied much more closely to the EU. But that's not really such a choice, is it?

 

[CyberRose]

When did that change and do you have a link?

Actually (after consulting Wiki) there is the CAP and some aspects of the Euro (currency) where the Council has a bigger say, but in every other policy area they are equal decision makers (ironically the Lisbon Treaty would have required all laws across the board to get the approval of the Parliament, but the Lisbon Treaty was deemed too undemocratic so we're leaving it the way it is now)

I suppose you could add foreign policy but that's not really a proper EU responsibility, it's more of an intergovernmental cooperation regime and no laws are made there

As far as the legislative branch of the EU is concerned I was under the impression the council was higher than the parliament in the pecking order and had the real power out of the two.

Originally it was, after each new Treaty the Parliament got more and more powers until the last Treaty gave them equal decision making powers

 

[CyberRose]

Yes ther EU is neutral body just waiting to be used. Even you don't believe this.

But it's no different to any other government in respect of "ideology" or external influences. We live in a capitalist world, everything is capitalist right now, in fact everything in the world has always been capitalist so I don't see what you achieve by singling the EU out? Especially all the good it has done to give extra rights and protection to workers and consumers...

 

[claphamboy]

Actually (after consulting Wiki) there is the CAP and some aspects of the Euro (currency) where the Council has a bigger say, but in every other policy area they are equal decision makers

And CAP is by far the biggest & most expensive EU policy accounting for about half of the budget, and I think most would agree the currency is right up there as the most important element.

You nearly convinced me that I was wrong, better luck next time.