The All New Education Debate

[Gmart]

Attendance at school being voluntary sounds all well and good, but many parents just use schools as a free child minder service and have no interest in getting their child to learn or even behave. Needless to say this impacts on other children who DO want to work.

Also CFE's are slowly stopping doing A levels, because they can't get the required 75% pass mark. Isn't that sad! I remember going to a CFE and it was my last chance. The way they are being phased out is criminal. Surely the chance to retrain is more important than anything else?

 

[kyser_soze]

A few points...

1. This would be better off in TPH, especially since it's covering the social role of education

2. School as volountary? That'd be fun - illiteracy and innumeracy levels would soar creating an even larger underclass than there is now. The failure of modern education to teach literacy and numeracy is a matter of technique, and the breakdown of the basic idea that these are skills important to life in our society.

3. Exams need to be restructured away from pass/fail but I think there will always be a place for testing knowledge. Every society in the world tests it's youth against the knowledge they've learned, be it formally in an exam room, over years of hunting in the bush or taking successfully farming the land - the idea that exams and testing is wrong is bollocks.

The rest of it is fantasy thinking, and altho IIlich was right (haven't seen that book since sociology A-level!!) you send kids out like that in this society and they'd get eaten alive.

 

[CyberRose]

I went to a comp and I turned out alright, as did many other people who went to that school (some went on to go to Oxbridge or have become doctors, scientists, etc). Others did, admittedly, end up in jail but hey ho!

Also, my mum is an excellent secondary school teacher despite only working at a comp as well, so not sure the opinion that state schools get all the shit teachers is true at all

 

[kyser_soze]

Also, my mum is an excellent secondary school teacher despite only working at a comp as well, so not sure the opinion that state schools get all the shit teachers is true at all

Handy, convenient and demeaning stereotype to make the OPs point more emphatic innit? Like you I went to the local comp, local 6th form attached to that comp, and I've done more than alright in life - better then more well off peers in some cases, and AFAIC the foundation of all of my educational success was my mum, who probably because the education system failed her, was incredibly supportive of my learning.

 

[Gmart]

More pay and less central control (ie no national curriculum) in the private schools.

But don't let facts get in the way eh?

Tell me, how do you stop a child from disrupting a class just because the don't want to do the work?

At what point do you get rid of a child who has no intention of working, is quite happy to tell you so, and who has parents who are quite happy to tell you that they don't care and that it is your job to look after them even if they don't work?

Apathy is not easy to deal with. You can try and prepare decent lessons but the long and short of it has to be that the child comes with a positive attitude to learning. If the parents don't care then they will also not care.

 

[Das Uberdog]

There should be a distinction between testing knowledge and testing ability. You can practically assess someone's capacity to carry out a certain task or job with the aid of an examination, it's not the same with academic subjects. Indeed, why should your ability in an academic subject act as any impediment upon whether or not you should be able to study it? If anything, those worse should be given priority...

I'd abolish all non-practical exams in the education system, beyond basic literacy and numeracy tests in primary school (which wouldn't be about pass or fail, and would be set by the school itself rather than by the state). In terms of academia, the education system should do no more than provide courses of interest for whoever wants to take them, whatever their age, and provide opportunities and encouragement for people to contribute their own opinions/thoughts etcetera through various different mediums - competitions, meetings, publications, etc. Let people make what they will of it, and make their own opportunities.

 

[kyser_soze]

Let people make what they will of it, and make their own opportunities.

The problems start with those who choose your unwritten option, 'Or not'.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Let them. It's impossible to 'force' someone to open their mind - and the results of trying are generally a personal rejection of everything academic.

 

[kyser_soze]

Fine, don't expect a welfare state to support an illiterate, innumerate unemployable person tho.

 

[Das Uberdog]

I reckon you'd have far fewer illiterate, innumerate and unemployable people in a system where academia wasn't presented from day one as an imposition of the establishment.

People's association of what is actually a repressive, anti-intellectual and stifling regime with the rhetoric of 'education' is what catalyses a disinterest in education for most people, in my experience. And I have a little - I got expelled in year 10 myself, alongside many other angry young men who I fraternised with at the time (we weren't all expelled at the same time or frmo the same place, whatever).

Ultimately, it's still down to individuals whether or not they equip themselves with life skills at school, or whether they just get on with it 'in the real world'. I'm not about changing that, just about re-routing the education system so it's focussed on the actual personal needs of those using it rather than those of the State and business.

 

[kyser_soze]

I could have been mean and said that sounds like a post facto justification for your being excluded, but won't because it would be crass because I know it's not true of you specifically. Altho I do think your own experiences colour your views somewhat - I did better than good at school because I didn't kick back at it (at some specific bits but not education altogether) so while I agree with your ideas to an extent, especially the socialisation aspect of schools, I don't agree with volountary schooling.

 

[Das Uberdog]

I don't think you should ask that people submit themselves to the establishment as a requirement in getting on with their lives - radical notion there, I know - but tbh is there anything more important than autonomy and self-respect?

Not in my book.

 

[Gmart]

The problems start with those who choose your unwritten option, 'Or not'.

Let them. It's impossible to 'force' someone to open their mind - and the results of trying are generally a personal rejection of everything academic.

Fine, don't expect a welfare state to support an illiterate, innumerate unemployable person tho.

Heartless! Penalise someone because they don't think the way you tell them to?

I agree with Das; the system could easily be aimed at everyone. Everyone should have the chance to turn their life around.

There are many kids who could do with a few years in employment (or not) to persuade them that education is the route out of poverty etc.

Lowering the age when you can leave would at least free the schools of the duty to teach those who have no interest. There is no use in doing so until the individual recognises its worth (if they wish to - many are quite happy without education).

 

[_George]

Having voluntary education system would be a mistake I feel. Pupils with some difficulty such as dyslexia (who are often the kids who are disruptive) would be more likley to just stay at home. Getting disruptive kids out of the school isnt the solution. Tailoring learning plans to the individual is. While ever education is based on the idea of putting a bunch of kids in a room and teaching them the same stuff in the same way then there will be people who arnet suited to that style of teaching and so will be disruptive. Tailor learning plans to the individual, give each individual realistic goals. Each pupil is able to fulfill there potential and nobody feels like a failure. Obviusly it would cost more but the benefits to society would be imeasurable.

 

[scifisam]

Kids aren't allowed to go out to work, though, not full-time. When they do work, they're not subject to the minimum wage and often get paid pennies.

So, if education were voluntary, and work were disallowed or paid so badly that it's exploitation, what would the kids end up doing all day?

 

[shagnasty]

School as to be compulsory to protect the children themself otherwise we go back to a system were a poor family needed a wage coming in. look at the times of child labour in the mills etc people actually accepted children working nowdays that would cause a ruckus.times change for areason and we must fight for that change

 

[Gmart]

So what if the disruptive pupils stay at home? If they are preventing the motivated children from realising their potential, then it sounds like a great idea. A special school for them, or borstal, with the opportunity to go back to their local school if they decide to make something of themselves, would seem like a much better idea.

Why should the good students suffer just because of the immaturity of pupils who see no value in education yet?

Perhaps we should have a playgroup for older kids?

Or syphon them off to study practical skills such as carpentry, masonry, electric studies, plumbing - to fill those jobs - but again if they are not motivated to work they will get chucked out of there too.

I appreciate that teachers are an easy target to aim - 'it is their fault for not motivating the little darlings' yet that attitude deliberately avoids the reality which has a small, but significant, number of children who are straight up apathetic and who are simply not able to be motivated...

If anyone can find a solution to that problem, teachers around the world would rejoice!

 

[Das Uberdog]

I don't buy that under my proposed scheme, dyslexic kids would be less likely to use the education system. Indeed, I think they'd have a much better time of it, being able to work at their own pace and develop their own passions, without constantly being assessed.

My system also has the advantage of being simple, and cheap. Infact, it'd definitely cost less to run the system I propose than the current one. It's decentralised, it's autonomous, and it's actually focussed around the pursuit of knowledge.

 

[Gmart]

Good document here on current policy...

 

[brasicritique]

Glasgow City Council's created the conditions for one school head to get it right.

A state school in one of the most deprived areas of Scotland has been given one of the best inspection reports of any secondary in the country. St Andrew's in Carntyne, Glasgow, which serves some of the poorest postcodes in the UK such as Easterhouse, Cranhill, Ruchazie and Shettleston, was awarded five "excellents" by inspectors – more than any other mainstream secondary school in the state or private sector since last summer when the rating was introduced.

....In terms of attainment, the school significantly outperforms those serving similar socio-economic areas with recent school leaver destination statistics showing that of the 259 pupils who left St Andrew's in 2004-05, 24% went on to higher education, 27% to further education, 11% to training and 28% into employment. One of the key factors highlighted by inspectors in the overall performance of the school was the strong Roman Catholic ethos which they said "permeated all aspects of school life".

....Tips for success

• Strict discipline with high standards of behaviour expected in class and the wider school. All pupils expected to conform to a code of conduct.
• Every pupil to wear school uniform with no exceptions.
• Homework a key plank of school life. High standards of presentation expected on all work.
• Flexible curriculum to provide challenges for those who are academically gifted as well as opportunities to succeed for every pupil.
• A strong and caring ethos developed in partnership with parents and the wider community. All staff expected to deliver the quality of teaching and care they would expect for their own children.

btw hows your friend pursewell

 

[brasicritique]

Like you I went to the local comp, local 6th form attached to that comp, and I've done more than alright in life -

oh look its urbans answer to obama

 

[kyser_soze]

Wow, nothing like bitterness is there?

 

[brasicritique]

yeh i am really bitter that i am not an inane hypocritical fuckwit like you

unless you have published in education journals are familair with current academic debate within this sector or work within this sector which it is safe to say you do not then it is safe to say that you know fuck all about education which is why we get the old stale mighty kyser 'i did it by my bootstraps nonsense'

REMEMEBR KIDS KYSER DID SO CAN YOU!!!

btw hows the collection for lemonsbrothers nurotic ex girlfriends going

 

[kyser_soze]

And again, the bitterness at your own life comes flooding out.

 

[brasicritique]

theres only one bitter poster here and its not me as i am not the one recylcyling the right wing boot strap arguements of norman tebbit.When you say bitter what you mean to say but do not have the balls to is 'the politics of envy' a neo con slogan well i am interested in the politics of social justice whereas your whole bitter hypotheses is just a commomn smear used to stifle deabte and merely demonstrates the monhtoughtcliqe here on urban which does not like to look at issues such as the disprportionate and state subsedised funding of young professional and therefore middle class housing

i do not think that is right and to say people such as i ar ebitter is just to smear a hell of a lot of people who do a hell of a lot more good in the world than you will ever do

 

[kyser_soze]

Actually, no I'm not talking about the politics of envy, just that you rail against everything in the world, and yet seemingly don't use the smarts you clearly have to do anything about your own situation, and just keep on bitching at the world and your own poor lot. You're bitterness has nothing to do with envy, but lots to do with redirecting anger at yourself at the world.

But hey, you keep thinking that you're some kind of unique voice in the wilderness with authentic w/c credentials and never doing anything to change your life, just banging on about how unfair the world is.

Not only that, but politics of envy was a r/w slogan a long time before the neo-cons, but then that whole paragraph is just you splattering a load of slogans and catchphrases as you get more wound up because my comments touched a nerve.

I too am interested in social justice, and my ideas for what should happen in say housing (for example) are probably not far off yours, you just find it easier to smear anyone who actually llikes their life.

And that line about helping people...you have no fucking idea at all.

The other irony of course is that I agree with a huge amount of what you say, but that chip on your shoulder...

 

[brasicritique]

Actually, no I'm not talking about the politics of envy, just that you rail against everything in the world, and yet seemingly don't use the smarts you clearly have to do anything about your own situation, and just keep on bitching at the world and your own poor lot. ....

er you know nothing about me so you are cionfusing marxist and post modern critiques with non insightfull insights

You're bitterness has nothing to do with envy, but lots to do with redirecting anger at yourself at the world.....

as i said like the murphys i'm not bitter

But hey, you keep thinking that you're some kind of unique voice in the wilderness with authentic w/c credentials and never doing anything to change your life, just banging on about how unfair the world is....

i have nver claimed to be a unique voice all i have claimed is that my voice is different to yours and that your a hypocrit

your the one obbsessed with bitterness and citing noram tebbit ffs your a tory

Not only that, but politics of envy was a r/w slogan a long time before the neo-cons, but then that whole paragraph is just you splattering a load of slogans and catchphrases as you get more wound up because my comments touched a nerve.....

yah relly i was drawing attention to how you use bitterness as a way of stifling debate

I too am interested in social justice,....

is ids your dad?

and my ideas for what should happen in say housing (for example) are probably not far off yours, you just find it easier to smear anyone who actually llikes their life.....

nonsense how you can equate me critisng the housing situation in the uk with people liking there lives is truly bizzare

And that line about helping people...you have no fucking idea at all....

actually with your pro tebbit arguement it is you who has no idea at all and as for helping people yeh i forgot you gave the lemon brothters bankers counselling

The other irony of course is that I agree with a huge amount of what you say, but that chip on your shoulder...

the irony is is that you post has just revealed that you belive you are psychic or cracker when in fact all you have done is futher demonstrate what an idiot you are still keep it up an el jefe will give you a chomp

 

[kyser_soze]

You're a fucking idiot, do you know that? You can't even comprehend what I've written, and that chip on your shoulder keeps getting bigger. Maybe you should take some pills and calm down, your spittle is practically visible in your post.

 

[Gmart]

Nice of you two to share your burgeoning love

This is about education. You have a number of issues to choose from. Should single sex schools be illegal? Why are CFE's getting closed down without debate? What are the chances of turning your life around with the current system? How could it be improved? How important is it to get a second chance in life?

I'm sure we all share a common caring attitude for our common man, and wish to work out the best practice for education.

Otherwise why would you be here on the thread?

Surely you have more in your life than hanging around websites hoping to trip each other up on consistency?

 

[dennisr]

as i said like the murphys i'm not bitter

you don't half know how to destroy every thread you go on