Thatcher at the Senedd

[Udo Erasmus]

In terms of a discussion on nationalism, interestingly, a recent survey claims that three-quarters of Plaid voters don't support independence and only half even a Welsh parliament: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...w-making-parliament-for-wales-91466-20983066/

In Scotland, Alex Salmond won't hold an immediate referendum on independence because he knows that he would lose.

 

[lewislewis]

In Scotland, Alex Salmond won't hold an immediate referendum on independence because he knows that he would lose.

Well duh...

Would you hold one if you thought you'd lose? Now I can see why your bunch haven't quite made it in politics yet

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Sorry, what I meant is that it suggests that the certainly historic advance of the nationalist parties doesn't neccesarily indicate a major advance in nationalism. And that people are voting for the nationalist parties for other reasons.

 

[editor]

In terms of a discussion on nationalism, interestingly, a recent survey claims that three-quarters of Plaid voters don't support independence and only half even a Welsh parliament: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...w-making-parliament-for-wales-91466-20983066/

But of more significance in that article is the news that around 40% of Tory voters now want to see a law-making Welsh Parliament - a colossal turnaround from the party that campaigned against devolution in 1979 and 1997.

 

[lewislewis]

Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick. For example they reneged on a Welsh language newspaper and attempted/attempting the biggest school closure programme in Wales ripping out the heart of rural communities. What alternative does nationalism offer Welsh workers? Anything radically beyond the British Welfare State won in 1945? I don't think so? So why should we support the Welsh middle class project?

It was a highly symbolic moment and said it all about the nationalists "vision"when the Leader of Plaid spent St David's Day on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would pursue anti-neoliberal policies Adam Price MP has made clear that their economic strategy is based on Ireland (whose boom saw a massive increase inequality and child poverty) and courting foreign multinationals to come to Wales? In the early 70s, Labour once made rhetoric about taxing the rich and business until the pips squeak. Plaid's economic thinking is radically different. Britain currently has the lowest corporation tax of any Western economy. This is not enough for Plaid they want to give multinationals bigger tax breaks than even Thatcher or Gordon Brown would support. (of course public services still have to be paid for, so we get higher tax bills & more indirect stealth taxes). We need to curb corporate power not pander to it.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be anti-imperialist when they have welcomed the UK Military Academy coming to South Wales (How many of Plaid's 200+ Cllrs, 3 MPs or 15 AMs have made any public statements opposing this?)

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be pro-working class when they are just as good at cutting local services and closing schools as the other parties?

Your analysis is incorrect.

The Plaid Minister will shortly be announcing a new daily Welsh language news service in print.
The reason it didn't happen first time around is because the bidder thought it wasn't enough money. Plaid didn't renege on anything it was simply a matter of waiting until someone else stepped forward to deliver the daily service.

Although I don't support Ireland's centre-right economic boom as the way forward for Wales, it actually saw a reduction of inequality in Ireland AND a reduction of child poverty. I proved both of these things to Udo in a private discussion and he seemed to acknowledge them.
I don't want a Celtic Tiger economy in Wales I want something more modest and more controlled, but Ireland is a useful example of an independent small country similar to us and how independence won't mean economic decline.

Finally, you said:
"Britain currently has the lowest corporation tax of any Western economy."
Does Ireland not count as a Western economy? Does Germany not count? Both of these have lower corporation tax rates than the UK and are both more equal societies than the UK.

This is just a factual dispute though- I want to see a move towards a Scandinavian-style social democracy in Wales based on high taxation of the rich.
Adam Price's idea of cutting corporation tax in targeted areas of Wales also doesn't seem legal (there was something about it reported before along these lines) so I think eventually we will have to have a rethink.

I think Salmond has a progressive idea in Scotland as his targets for economic growth also state that inequality must be reduced, so if Scotland doesn't become a more equal society as the economy grows then the SNP won't have achieved their targets.

 

[ddraig]

Udo! ffs

please answer or i will have to try other avenues
1. why are you posting about the possible unison strike at Cardiff Council??
2. where did you get this info and is it ok for you to be posting it as the ballot has not gone out yet?
3. what good is posting it here going to achieve?

how many people directly involved do you think post or are even likely to read this forum???

serious questions

 

[ddraig]

Point Of Order Udo

that meeting and decision were both well before the May election and knowing who would be in control of the council.

THE MEETING WAS IN MARCH

so it is not 'aginst the plaid/lib dem council' but the council as an employer

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Udo! ffs

please answer or i will have to try other avenues

1. why are you posting about the possible unison strike at Cardiff Council??
2. where did you get this info and is it ok for you to be posting it as the ballot has not gone out yet?
3. what good is posting it here going to achieve?

how many people directly involved do you think post or are even likely to read this forum???

serious questions

1. Basic working class solidarity. Any working class people trying to fight back against the bosses merit support. This strike is taking place against the backdrop of wider unrest. Currently a huge proportion of people in Wales work in the public sector. The British ruling class are trying to impose a pay rise below inflation (ie a pay cut) across the public sector. This comes at the same time as workers are already feeling the pinch of rising fuel prices, electricity and water bills, rising council tax, rising food prices. We also know that it's not everyone being told to tighten their belts - for the rich, they've never had it so good!

As a socialist I support the trade union movement. I believe that if this strike is successful it will build confidence among other workers to organise and improve the lot of our class. People in Britain now work the longest hours for the worst pay in Europe - why? Because the trade union movement was smashed under Thatcher.

Supporting these seemingly small disputes is part of rebuilding the combativity of working class organisations so that we can begin to improve the life and conditions of people in Wales and start pushing back against the continued dismantling of the Welfare State and various reforms won in 1945 like free health care, free education etc.

Because of their strategic power under capitalism, workplace organisation is very important.

Also, Niclas and Lewislewis have sold the Plaid deal with the LibDems as progressive, it's important to highlight the reality: That Plaid, a self proclaimed left wing party, is about wage a vicious attack on working people. Alongside doing a deal with the LibDems to keep open one school on their patch and close schools in other areas of Cardiff.

2. It's not secret, it's from UNISON's website and represents the perspective agreed democratically by the Union branch.

3. Hopefully, it will help build solidarity and highlight the importance of supporting the trade union movement, this is not just a dispute between one group of workers and the council, but rather about working people as a whole bettering themselves. There must be lots of people on this forum who have, or know people who have been harrassed at work because they are sick, or fear that Employers are getting more and more vicious against people who have to take time due to ill-health. There must be lots of people on this forum who have experienced having their rights denied in the workplace, but not being able to do anything about it.

There is a general trend towards society becoming more authoritarian and particularly attacks on the sick. For example, the government is talking about a draconian Welfare reform. THey want to abolish the traditional "sick note" and replace it with a "well-note" where the Doctor says, this is what you are well enough to do - ie, away to harrass people who are sick and force them back into work or onto the dole heap.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Point of Order Rejected

that meeting and decision were both well before the May election and knowing who would be in control of the council.

THE MEETING WAS IN MARCH

Unfortunately, Ddraig this doesn't hold up. As according to the Echo one of the things agreed in the LibDem/Plaid Coalition was explicitly a new sickness policy for the Council. ie. Plaid have signed up to the LibDem policy. It's not just the Council "as an employer" but Council policy as dictated by the Political parties who run it. Otherwise why would it have been an item in the deal sealed between LibDems and Plaid?

What about these last ditch talks, well after Plaid/LibDems have taken power:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...-heads-for-sick-levels-strike-91466-20945714/

But Unison, which has 4,000 members at Cardiff council, and the GMB, which has 2,300 members, has made an 11th-hour appeal to the authority’s new Liberal Democrat and Plaid executive for talks.

Why so keen to defend Plaid? I hope I have answered your 3 questions to your satisfaction?

 

[ddraig]

Unfortunately, Ddraig this doesn't hold up. As according to the Echo one of the things agreed in the LibDem/Plaid Coalition was explicitly a new sickness policy for the Council. ie. Plaid have signed up to the LibDem policy. It's not just the Council "as an employer" but Council policy as dictated by the Political parties who run it. Otherwise why would it have been an item in the deal sealed between LibDems and Plaid?

What about these last ditch talks, well after Plaid/LibDems have taken power:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...-heads-for-sick-levels-strike-91466-20945714/



Why so keen to defend Plaid? I hope I have answered your 3 questions to your satisfaction?

thanks for your thorough answers to my 3 q's.
I am not defending Plaid particularly just making the point that it wasn't a vote against plaid or the lib dems as the meeting to opose the disgusting new sickness policy was in march and attempts were made to repeal it after the 1st April when it was brought in.
as i understood it there was always going to be an attempt to get the new administration to withdraw the new policy, whoever it was.
now i don't know that or if plaid backed it or had any say and if they did then they cnuts too!

 

[Udo Erasmus]

just making the point that it wasn't a vote against plaid or the lib dems as the meeting to opose the disgusting new sickness policy was in march and attempts were made to repeal it after the 1st April when it was brought in.

Well it was a vote against LibDems because they were in power in march, and introducing the new policy, and part of the deal cut between LibDems and Plaid was to reduce the sickness rate at the council. To be fair, maybe they meant reducing the sick rate by differernt means, but the fact that Unions have been engaged in last minute talks suggests that it was referring to the current policy, and that both parties are in support of the existing policy.

 

[lewislewis]

I am sure that it is not the case that Plaid isn't on the same side as the unions. Time will reveal all.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...ncil-walkout-may-cripple-city-91466-20990816/

I fear you may be disappointed, unless they try and play the old politicians game of having two faces. But this is precisely why I argued that if they want to position themselves as a party of the left it would have been better to remain in opposition and build their forces rather than teaming up with the LibDems.

 

[lewislewis]

Can't be in opposition forever though...if we want to change things it makes sense to try and have 'power' (not much of it yet but we'll see).

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Smash The Wage Freeze

While the dispute that the Council Workers are balloting for strike action for, is not linked directly with action against the Wage Freeze, it feeds into a general mood of opposition and rising union action.

With the falling rate of profit/credit crisis, the ruling class has been attempting to stabilise their profits by squeezing the working class. You won't hear politicians calling for bosses, millionaires and fat cats to tighten their belts - only working people.

There has been, (or the prospect) of strike action across a huge section of the trade union movement - teachers, postal workers, railway workers, council workers, lecturers, civil servants etc. etc.

Brown is attempting to impose a pay cut/cut in living standards on all public sector workers - but let's be clear, while Brown is using divide and rule - ie. references to public sector workers enjoying privileges that most workers don't enjoy, if this suceeds it will send a clear signal to big business to start cutting wages for workers in the private sector.

Therefore, each individual struggle of a group of workers against a pay freeze, actually is a fight for all working people, because they are part of a fightback against the attempt to impose a cut in living standards and wages on ALL working people.

In our organisation we have been trying in a modest way to support groups of workers on strike - taking collections at our workplaces for striking postal workers, setting up an informal network of rank and file unionists, trying to make people aware that these disputes are in defence all working people, trying to push for co-ordinated strike action - a general strike across the public sector - if different unions strike on the same day it turns an economic dispute into a political event, while also waging a battle to build a grassroots alternative to the trade union bureaucracy and the Labour Party link. Sure it's not perfect, but if we can help build a fighting coalition of the working class on some level, then that will be something.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Can't be in opposition forever though...if we want to change things it makes sense to try and have 'power' (not much of it yet but we'll see).

Those who try and change the system from within
Often find the system changes them from within - Udo