Thatcher at the Senedd

[editor]

As stated before: We don't oppose British Nationalism with Welsh Nationalism, we oppose Nationalism with Working Class Internationalism.

And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.

 

[1927]

And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.

Here here!

 

[niclas]

Let's get down to brass tacks.

Do you still claim I'm a racist?

 

[lewislewis]

Moving onto Crewe. Niclas immediately seeks to explain the transfer of traditional Labour votes to the Tories in terms of the supposed radical difference between Welsh and English workers. Actually we see exactly the same process going on in Wales of the implosion of Labour. For example, where I live traditional Labour voters have switched to LibDem, in other areas it might be Plaid, in some areas it may even be Tory. But it's the same process going on. Of course, there are differences - Wales has a 4 party system, and a different context with the Assembly & issues such as the Welsh language. But Niclas's attempts to divide the working class are a road to nowhere.

There isn't so much a 'radical difference between Welsh and English workers' but a substantial and measurable difference in voting patterns, political attitudes and the organisation & presence of political parties. When you combine these elements, throw in devolution, Welsh national identity and the language in some areas, you end up with a different political context than the one in England.
That is why we have a distinctive movement in Wales, to address the distinctive political situation in Wales.

What part of that don't you understand?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.

Innit... now, wheres that supersoaker?

 

[penderyn2000]

There isn't so much a 'radical difference between Welsh and English workers' but a substantial and measurable difference in voting patterns, political attitudes and the organisation & presence of political parties.

But there are substantial differences between the political outlooks of different parts of Wales; the same applies to England. The nature of employment is far more crucial to the development of consciousness than national origins. Anyone who has lived and worked in different mining communities, as I have, will be aware of that. Yes, there are some cultural differences between Welsh valleys towns and the mining communities of South Yorkshire, but they are far outweighed by the similarities.

The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel. Socialists must be sensitive to this and not draw an equivalence between Wales as a nation and the nation which historically invaded and subsumed this country. However, it was a major step forward for Welsh miners when they broke from local organisation to become part of an all-UK union. They recognised their interests lay with those of other workers, not the bosses who shared the same nationality.

This thread's about Thatcher. Welsh miners fought alongside English and Scottish miners in the struggle against her - who could say that was not a good thing? It is the legacy of defeat of that struggle which has weakened class consciousness amongst workers and driven some, but still a minority, to seek solutions in separatism.

Anyone interested in discussing issues crucial to socialists in South Wales is invited to the first meeting of the Cardiff Radical Socialist Forum on Thurs June 5, 7.30pm, Model Inn.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.

not sure tbh you need to differentiate between the Welsh and the rest of the world. no one gives a flying fuck about pedantic lefty point scoring.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I hardly think that it was pedantic, to say that if people are outraged by a mere image of Thatcher at the Senedd, they should be more outraged that the nationalists came within a whisker of forming a bloc that would have seen Tory ministers in Wales inside the Senedd! More pertinently the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales have been courting Cameron and the Tories offering to do a deal to prop up the Tories in the event of a hung parliament after the next general election.

I'm not sure why Penderyn claims I deny that Wales was oppressed historically? The point is that for Welsh independence to be worthwhile now it would have to offer Welsh workers rather more than the 1945 Labour government and British Working class movement has achived. Instead what Nationalism offers is some Old Labour rhetoric and minor reforms tacked onto a general acceptance of the neoliberal consensus.

Penderyn mentions the miners. The period when miners began to unite was around the Great Unrest around 1910/11 and culminated in a radical manifesto of rank and file working class organisation, The Miners' Next Step published a year later. 7 years later the local paper in Merthyr was to declare, "Outside of Russia, Nowhere was the Russian Revolution welcomed with greater joy than in Merthyr". This was followed by the explosion of the Communist Party into the valleys,the bitter struggle of 1926 when Miners were left to fight it out alone after betrayal by the TUC in a nine-month lock out, and forced to return with worst conditions and pay than when they began to strike (it was incidentally this defeat that led Nye Bevan to abandon revolutionary syndicalism and go down the parliamentary road), the huge mobilisations against the means test in 1935 vividly described by Gwyn Alf Williams in When Was Wales and Welsh workers volunteering to go abroad to defend the Spanish republic. Communist writer, Lewis Jones, the Welsh Steinbeck, reportedly collapsed after speaking at meeting after meeting mobilising people to volunteer.

What is striking is at this peak of working class struggle in Wales, national demands were not being raised by Welsh workers. The Nationalist Party in Wales formed a year before the General Strike of 26 was irrelevant to these militant workers, indeed it was totally hostile to these militant workers feeling more afinity with the European far right than working class in Wales.

Penderyn is also wrong to claim that I equate British and Welsh nationalism.

The rise of nationalism in Wales and Scotland is actually a product of the defeat of class struggle, and is locked into the dynamics of the Labour Party. In both countries, nationalist parties first made their breakthrough from disillusionment with Harold Wilson's Labour party as a protest vote and have only been able to break out of a very narrow base by changing their programme to orientate towards traditional Labour voters. In South Wales, nationalism has grown from the hammering that working class struggle has taken under Thatcher and the accelerated shift to the right of the traditional party of the working class under Blair. Of course, many Plaid voters do not vote for them because of their nationalist rhetoric but because Plaid raise some vaguely old-labour type demands, but given the collapse of Labour, some voters now look to some form of nationalism.

The trouble is that nationalism and the appeal to nation mystify class divisions and blunt the edge off class struggle rather than sharpening the edge. For example, it is clear that many businessmen and corporations in Scotland are now embracing nationalism and the SNP. Welsh nationalism also relies like all nationalisms on a falsification of history and pedalling of myths.

One of the most sickening spectacles I saw last year was during the PCS strike on their May Day rally, a union rep was handing out little Welsh flags on sticks. And one of the union reps had a gigantic Welsh flag. Now I have no idea what a national flag has to do with class struggle? Does the Welsh flag help build class consciosness or is does the ideology of a nation blunt it?

To be frank, I think that Penderyn is being opportunist and trying to cosy up to nationalists!

 

[osterberg]

The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel.

I was with you up to that point. Are you talking about the middle ages ?
Wales was hardly a nation in the modern sense at the time . It was a bunch of small rival kingdoms with a norman bit in the south.That was long before the industrial revolution and the rise of capitalism and I can't see that having much relevance with the miners' struggles you mention.

Perhaps the suppression of the Welsh language counts as national oppression but it pales a bit compared with the oppression of Palestinians.

I have no problem with people having a national identity and would be happy with the break-up of the British state but it's class relations that is the main cause of divisions in society rather than nationality.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Penderyn is trying to cosy up to the nationalists - but best not to mention that Penderyn's organisation campaigned strongly against devolution. A valid position, to be sure, but given that he reprimanded me for not recognising legitmate national aspirations, a little contradictory.

 

[lewislewis]

I hardly think that it was pedantic, to say that if people are outraged by a mere image of Thatcher at the Senedd, they should be more outraged that the nationalists came within a whisker of forming a bloc that would have seen Tory ministers in Wales inside the Senedd! More pertinently the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales have been courting Cameron and the Tories offering to do a deal to prop up the Tories in the event of a hung parliament after the next general election.

People are genuinely outraged about the Thatcher image- they are talking about it and are politically interested in it. The interest in this case expressed as anger. I'm very pleased it went up and caused this debate because it exposes how unpopular the Thatcherite consensus is in Wales.

But people weren't outraged by the possibility of Plaid forming a coalition that included the Tories, at the time. Alot of people were supportive in fact. I think their support was in spite of the Tories, because Plaid would be leading the government. That did excite alot of people at the time and I dabbled with the idea- but the Tories hadn't changed enough. They can't even commit all of their party to supporting primary legislative powers for Wales, even when 40% of their voters support this objective. There were also problems with working with the Lib Dems, as they are useless and cannot be trusted with responsibility.

The left opposed working with the Tories, and a socialist administration was formed as the alternative. I think that was the right choice for Plaid and so far it has worked reasonably well.
In the long-term Plaid needs to replace Labour as the mainstream social democratic party in Wales.

On the subject of Cameron, I think it is not so much a courting of the Tories as an attempt to gain more independence for Wales. It is only through further powers that we will be able to build the different kind of society Plaid wants. The nationalism is part of the social agenda and vice versa.

 

[penderyn2000]

best not to mention that Penderyn's organisation campaigned strongly against devolution. A valid position, to be sure.

No, please, do mention it. My partner and I walked into the polling station immediately behind two SWP members. Our votes cancelled each other out. So we can at least agree that in that instance the SWP were opportunist, though not half as opportunist as when they abandoned class politics altogether to ditch the Socialist Alliance and launch Respect. Please do not lecture me on opportunism.

Our position on devolution has changed according to changing reality: the assembly exists now, so we make demands on it that challenge its fake democracy and the misleadership of the likes of Rhodri Morgan and his Plaid allies. As regards nationalism, we recognise Wales as a nation and therefore the right of its people to secession if they so choose. If it became the overwhelming will of the Welsh people we would support it and fight for that secession to become the fight for a socialist society. Since it is clearly not the overwhelming will of the Welsh people, we do not advocate it.

Workers Power made its name with a booklet called "The Death Agony of the Fourth International" in which we traced the degeneration of that international as a result of tailing petit bourgeois nationalist movements. Many years ago we debated what is now Socialist Resistance, part of the Respect project, on that very issue.

As for the rest of Udo's post, aren't you just repeating what I said? The thrust of my post was essentially to agree with you against the nationalists, but you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

As to devolution, it's a pragmatic question not one of principle. But the point is your formulations are ambiguous. For example, you stated earlier "we shouldn't trample on the legitimate aspirations of a small nation" - you need to clarify what you believe specifically are these legitimate aspirations? Otherwise the statement is mere rhetoric. For Niclas and Lewislewis opposing the Welsh Assembly and a Welsh Parliament would be treading on the legitimate national aspirations of the Welsh nation to self-determination. Whereas, for me, the question of a parliament for Wales with lawmaking powers is not posed in terms of nation, but rather whether it will forward the interests of the left wing movement and be of benefit to Welsh working people.

As regards nationalism, we recognise Wales as a nation and therefore the right of its people to secession if they so choose. If it became the overwhelming will of the Welsh people we would support it and fight for that secession to become the fight for a socialist society. Since it is clearly not the overwhelming will of the Welsh people, we do not advocate it.

Perfectly valid, but how do you respond to nationalist demands being made now? How do you respond to the growth of nationalism in Wales today? Or do you just ignore it in order to ingratiate to left nationalists?

I'm glad that we and Penderyn seem to be in some agreement, so he will forgive me if we talk about the 5% where we may not see eye to eye. Though he's a bit cheeky as I recall him tailing petit-bourgeois anarchists, fluffy pacifists and vegan fundamentalists sometime back.

you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.

Not really, but as Marx did say in 1848, we communists disdain to conceal our views.

 

[osterberg]

.....but you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.

Not the only one, is he.

It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.

As for opportunism , the SWP has always supported the demand for a Welsh assembly as a furthering of democracy,supported Welsh language rights,the right to independence if thats what people want.But we're not nationalists and we've always tried to put the interests of the working class first.
Can't see what's opportunist about that.

For what its worth I don't think Penderyn2000 was being opportunist either.
I hope that next week's "radical socialist" meeting that PR's doing is constructive and not just another excuse for some SWP bashing.
Good luck with it.

By the way Udo's not in the SWP.

 

[editor]

Perhaps the suppression of the Welsh language counts as national oppression but it pales a bit compared with the oppression of Palestinians.

Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?

 

[llantwit]

Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?

Where'd you get that idea from?
He was responding to a direct point made by Penderyn, who said:

The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel.

Which is a bit of a bizarre claim, if you ask me.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?

Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick. For example they reneged on a Welsh language newspaper and attempted/attempting the biggest school closure programme in Wales ripping out the heart of rural communities. What alternative does nationalism offer Welsh workers? Anything radically beyond the British Welfare State won in 1945? I don't think so? So why should we support the Welsh middle class project?

It was a highly symbolic moment and said it all about the nationalists "vision"when the Leader of Plaid spent St David's Day on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would pursue anti-neoliberal policies Adam Price MP has made clear that their economic strategy is based on Ireland (whose boom saw a massive increase inequality and child poverty) and courting foreign multinationals to come to Wales? In the early 70s, Labour once made rhetoric about taxing the rich and business until the pips squeak. Plaid's economic thinking is radically different. Britain currently has the lowest corporation tax of any Western economy. This is not enough for Plaid they want to give multinationals bigger tax breaks than even Thatcher or Gordon Brown would support. (of course public services still have to be paid for, so we get higher tax bills & more indirect stealth taxes). We need to curb corporate power not pander to it.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be anti-imperialist when they have welcomed the UK Military Academy coming to South Wales (How many of Plaid's 200+ Cllrs, 3 MPs or 15 AMs have made any public statements opposing this?)

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be pro-working class when they are just as good at cutting local services and closing schools as the other parties?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Not the only one, is he.
It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.

I don't think that this is entirely fair comment to make, as the entire radical left doesn't make the weight at the moment. Personally, yes, the Respect project was flawed, but hopefully the non-Galloway version can get a more right-on attitude and sharper class politics.

 

[editor]

Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick.

Where did I mention Plaid Cymru?

They're not the only people with an interest in the Welsh language, you know.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I would argue that Wales was slightly different from Israel/Palestine, for example, in that the ruling class here was relatively quickly bound together with the English ruling class, with the ruling dynasty of Britain in the 16th Century being of Welsh ancestry, ie. the tudors. Wales was wholly assimilated into the English governmental system under Henry VIII. The Act of Union of 1536 (revised in 1543) established some form of equality for the Welsh people before the English law set today's borders between England and Wales. Palestinians on the occupied territories do not have full equality before Israeli law. Closer to our time, a Welshman, Lloyd George, whom was close to the nationalist movement, waged imperialist wars and sent working class youth to be butchered on the Somme (hence many prefer the epiphet, the Butcher Boy to the Welsh Wizard)

 

[osterberg]

Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?

Of course it counts.
I totally support the right of the Welsh people to speak their own langauge but ,for example , being banned from speaking Welsh at work isn't quite the same as having an Israeli tank demolish your house.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Where did I mention Plaid Cymru?

They're not the only people with an interest in the Welsh language, you know.

This is true, at the last Welsh language rally in Cardiff the only parties in evidence were Plaid and Respect. Plaid's recent antics seem to have pissed off Cymdeithas no end.

A socialist society run for people not profit would in, the long term, be more likely to preserve local cultures and commnities that nationalist neoliberal stuff.

 

[editor]

Of course it counts.
I totally support the right of the Welsh people to speak their own langauge but ,for example , being banned from speaking Welsh at work isn't quite the same as having an Israeli tank demolish your house.

And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?

You don't actually seem to be saying anything.

So, you think that Wales is oppressed, tell us in what way? - what is your solution?

Welsh independence? But the main force advocating that would give Welsh workers less than they won from the reforms implemented by the British State in 1945, and is often anti-working class. I see English workers as my allies in the fight for a fairer society and would rather unite with them than rich Welsh people.

 

[osterberg]

And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?

Eh? What's Godwin's Law?
I didn't make the comparison,it was Penderyn2000.
I was just pointing out that it wasn't a good comparison.
I actually agree with you that attacks on the Welsh language are a bad thing.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Osterberg - you are a colonizer and opressor - don't deny it!

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Out of interest, it is interesting that Niclas and Lewislewis somehow forgot (cough, cough) to tell us that part of the agreement between the LibDems and Plaid on Cardiff Council was to enforce a tougher sickness regime on council workers that according to UNISON could lead to genuinely ill workers being sacked.
Thousands of Council workers are likely to be striking shortly to oppose this attack. We'll be on the picket lines with them!

 

[editor]

So, you think that Wales is oppressed, tell us in what way? - what is your solution?

If you view the Welsh language as an expression of their culture and national identity, then there is no doubt that historically the Welsh have been oppressed, particularly around the period following the 'Blue Books' outrage.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be finding a 'solution' for.

 

[penderyn2000]

Not the only one, is he.

It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.

This is one of the issues we'll be discussing at the meeting next week, to which all the socialists on here are invited. The fact that the anti-war movement was so big, yet socialists recruited poorly from it, was what convinced the SWP leadership to abandon the specifically socialist (though not specifically revolutionary) Socialist Alliance and build Respect. I'm not going through all the arguments about that again, but the fact is that the recent election results were generally worse for both sides of the former Respect than the SA had previously attained.

We have to start from analysing the reasons why socialists have been doing badly rather than looking for endless quick fixes.

If we are revolutionary socialists we also have to be clear about the path to revolution. The majority of workers will not attain a revolutionary consciousness outside of a revolutionary crisis. Our task is therefore to orientate towards the vanguard and win this vanguard from its reformist illusions to a clear commitment to a revolutionary programme. The reason we are critical of the SWP, the SP and others is not because of a mindless desire to bash but because these groups are continually bolstering reformist illusions in their attempts to orientate to the majority. The SP, eg, are presently committed to building an explicitly reformist workers party, Labour Party Mk 2, in order to provide a seedbed for recruitment.

The Bolsheviks had about ten thousand in 1905 and were still a small minority before the crisis erupted in 1917. Through having a clear revolutionary programme and well-trained and committed cadre, however, they were able to lead the working-class and peasantry to revolution.

Does Osterberg believe we cannot build a party of ten to twenty thousand revolutionary socialists in the UK?

I suspect Udo, had he not been compromised by the influence of the largest left group, might be part of such an organisation.

On our tailing of anarchists etc - we attempted to orientate to a large and vibrant movement just as Globalise Resistance did, but in an honest way, and I'm sure Llantwit will attest to the fact that Cardiff Social Forum was the site of many sharp disagreements between ourselves and those of a more libertarian persuasion. As for tailing pacifists, we never at any time shirked our responsibility to call for the defeat of the US/UK in its imperialist adventures. That put us in a small minority on the left, which didn't include anyone here to my knowledge.

The fact is, we need a new revolutionary party. The larger groups aren't fit for purpose and will split rather than reform. Small groups do not have the resources to compete effectively. We need to establish basic principles and begin the process of regroupment as a matter of priority - that's why we want people to participate in the new forum.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Why Cardiff Council Workers Are Striking against LibDems/Plaid Council

At the Branch AGM on 13th March a motion was almost unanimously passed which will instigate the process for a ballot for industrial action if the Council persists with the introduction of the new sickness absence policy from 1st April.

Unison was consulted on the new proposals back in October, when the Scrutiny Committee asked for a review of the sickness absence figures just a year after the introduction of the last policy.

We considered this to be too soon to be changed again

· the Work Life Balance changes had only just been introduced so any benefits that were anticipated to come from that would not necessarily have begun to materialise.

· In other Local Authorities in Wales where similar Work Life Balance initiatives have been tried there has been an improvement in sickness absence levels, less stress and better staff morale.

· The year old policy also introduced the tightening up of sickness recording, so numbers were always likely to go up initially.

The new policy is, whatever way you look at it, penalising ill health.

When the Council introduced the last sickness policy they said it was because our long term sickness levels were too high and introduced ways to dismiss the long term sick more easily.

This time they are saying our short term sickness- what they now call ‘persistent’ sickness – is the target.

At the moment if you go off sick you have to phone in on the first day and the third within the first week. Under the new policy you will have to phone in every day for the first week. This is unnecessary and heavy handed – almost bullying management.

And even worse, they have cut out an entire stage in the procedures so that they can sack us after just 9 incidences of sickness in a 14 month period.

The Branch Committee decided, in November, that we should tell the Council we reject the new policy in no uncertain terms. A comprehensive response was submitted alongside supporting evidence from the Institute of Management. You may have seen this submission quoted in the Echo.

The Branch Committee also decided that this represented a charter to sack our members for genuine illness and that this is unacceptable. Therefore, if the Council refused to listen to our concerns we would bring the matter to a general meeting to discuss instigating the process for a ballot for industrial action. The Executive Business Meeting decided that the policy would be implemented on 1st April. That is why the motion was put to the General Meeting.

The first step in the process was for you to vote for it in a general meeting. Then the Full Time Regional Organiser, Steve, will have to meet with the employer on our behalf to see if there is any way we can secure satisfactory changes to the policy by having further discussions with the employer. Then we will call you to a further general meeting to report back. You will then have to vote on whether you wish to proceed to a ballot.

What forms of industrial action could we take?

· We could ‘withdraw good will’.

· We could refuse to co-operate with the new policy.

· We could take strike action.

We think this policy is draconian and ultimately will not work, it will just victimise the sick. UNISON will not stand by and allow this to be foisted upon our members – watch this space for more info