Thatcher at the Senedd
- Thread starter Dic Penderyn
- Start date
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
What specifically is 'bollocks'? Wales was a site of sharp class struggles and working class struggle. The Nationalists would rather celebrate people like Hywel Dda from the Middle Ages because they want to cultivate the idea of a Wales that was united and a common community from the past to the prsent, to talk about working class struggle and conflict within Wales would challenge the project of creating a "national culture" and "national identity". Of course, some nationalists do allude to this history (giving it a nationalist twist), but when they do they domesticate the struggle or paint it in a way that robs it of its claws. In general, my point stands.
Over to you, belushi
Third rate caricature of nationalism.
And you dont need to lecture me about the class struggle in the valleys I was there in 1984, unlike yourself.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
You're nuts.
I'm English-speaking and working class and very much part of the national project, albeit a more critical part.
I think your attitude is divisive.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Our fave AM on this
http://leannewoodamac.blogspot.com/2008/05/asylum-seekers-ruling-is-necessary.html
She is also on ITV Wales' politics programme tomorrow arguing the pro-asylum seekers case against crackpot right-wing Tory MP David Davies (the Monmouth one not the old guy).
Tune in and enjoy! Don't know what time it's on though.
Sums it all up. The history of the Welsh working class doesn't fit into Udo's little Brit compartments - a lot of it is about national oppression linked to class oppression (M'luds I cite the Mold riots of 1869 - not medieval history but class politics married to the national oppression that existed at the time... you can still see the bullet holes in the town hall building).
If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
hmmm, not only of a picture of a horrible woman, but no very good art either (imho, I realise these things are subjective). bbc report
Blimey those are pisspoor, looks like Tony Hancock sans trilby and Babs Cartland sans poodle. Good to see they've left a space for two more. Let me guess those are for King Edward and some other bastard.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Never.
More often than not, opposition to Labour in Wales since 1997 (as expressed electorally) has come from the left not from the right. Sometimes this opposition from the left has been expressed in a misguided way such as backing the Lib Dems, but Plaid Cymru are always the main benefactor of Labour's failures, most recently a few weeks ago on Caerphilly council with the victory there, or even in the urban parts of Carmarthenshire (esp. Llanelli) where Labour was decimated by Plaid.
Welsh politics since 1997 does tell us that it is very possible to stand on a clear left-wing platform and get elected. We have to keep this up and take it further, and ensure that grievances about the Labour party and about New Labour are not misdirected into support for the BNP, or even for the Conservative Party in any amount that would challenge Plaid.
Just being on left platforms and talking the talk isn't good enough. We need policy actions that can be considered progressive to come out of this realignment of Welsh politics. I think we have already achieved several of these (mainly on PFI & public services), are on the brink of a number of others (council housing, renewable energy) and could get even more if we had full powers at the Assembly.
The question of nationalism and the compromises needed to get in power and maintain power are to me far less important than the fact that we are now at a stage where we are actually promoting a programme of government that is in theory radically different to that being propagated by the mainstream parties in the Westminster parliament.
To turn this more openly into practice we need to make sure that we have more public support.
The BNP have also been kept out of Wales even as in England they are gaining seriously worrying footholds. The non-Plaid left was also crucial to this as was the work of Searchlight Cymru. Wales is also different to England in that even the Tories here are involved in anti-fascism (not the militant kind though). The BNP results were awful across all of Wales apart from Swansea where they were worrying. The BNP did worse than the far-left in many parts of Wales.
So far, so good.
At the same time we need the left in England to develop a response to devolution that involves critical support for Plaid and a commitment to a party that accepts electoralism as a means to an end that should be actively and professionally pursued. Time to stop pissing around in the sects and fractions. The alternative to this is people like the BNP getting more power and the centre-right having a clean sweep at every election. I don't want to live next door to a fascist country!
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
"Although those of us who have been brought up in Monmouth and in Glamorgan are not Welsh-speaking, Welsh-writing Welshmen, nevertheless we are all aware of the fact that there exists in Wales, and especially in the rural areas, a culture which is unique in the world. And we are not prepared to see it die."
Aneurin Bevan, 1953
Nye attended the Ebbw Vale Eisteddfod in 1958 amongst huge interest and called the event "a monument to civilisation".
Surprisingly, I discovered all of this from the blog of the right-wing Labour AM Leighton Andrews, of all people. Good shout.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Evidently, there are differences between Welsh politics and English politics, but this seems the old argument that the Welsh working class is inherrently more left than the English working class.
I hear rumour that the Poll Tax was sank in a riot in Trafalgar Square in London, that some of the most militant miners in 1984 were in the pits of Yorkshire. Indeed, in the early 70s English workers were extremely militant bringing down the Heath government. In fact, the most radical section of Welsh workers often saw themselves as fighting as part of a common struggle with English and Scottish workers, it was this unity from below that won us the Welfare State and wrang many key concessions from the boss class. Niclas by trying to break-up unity between Welsh and English workers is, in the long term, strengthening the British working class.
What about a similar working class town in the North of England? Do you think that they would be likely to vote Tory?
Even within different areas of Wales we see a variation in militancy.
Why do more people vote left in the South of Wales than the North?
Why have traditionally Welsh left wing politicians come from the valleys rather than Ynys Mon?
This is not a very convincing argument.
rioted
redundant
'cos the Labour Party never did that, did it?
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
'cos the Labour Party never did that, did it?
A valid point.
I think you're trying to say "strengthening the British ruling class"? So that's what I've been doing all these years...
The metropolitan hacks describe Crewe as being an archetypal northern industrial town - and it is.
RJ Derfel was a Welsh socialist pioneer from Caernarfon, Robert Owen from Newtown. The Valleys is where the bulk of Welsh workers live and where the class struggle has been at its sharpest (although slate workers in Bethesda would argue with that). Simplistic north-south stereotypes that seek to divide us don't really stand up to examination.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
And simplistic English-Welsh stereotypes that seek to divide us don't really stand up to examination.
I'm not sure what point you are making? Tom Paine, who participated in revolutions in America and France came from East Anglia, ditto William Godwin, godfather of British anarchism. But currently East Anglia is a bastion of Toryism. Ever read the Making of the English Working Class?
But in more recent history, the entire working class fought back against Thatcher, but some of the most notable events were in England - the 1981 uprisings in the inner cities, the battle of the beanfield, the polltax riots.
Welsh workers have a history they can be well proud of, bur diminishing other sets of workers, or pretending that the Welsh are inherently more radical than the English is bogus
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
One of the areas with the most radical history in Britain is the East End of London, immortalised in Jack London's, "The People of the Abyss", where the fabian Beatrice Webb went down and out and wrote a diary, birthplace of the New Unionism, a place where Rudolf Rocker once roamed, in the 1920s, George Lansbury and the Rebel Councillors of Poplar perhaps represented the finest traditions of the Labour Party actually, for once, fighting for working class people, once represented by Phil Piratin, a Communist MP, whose book "Our flag stays Red" recalls the collosal battles to drive the fascists out of the East End, and latterly still elected left wing politicians.
The early history of the East End is recounted in two remarkable history's by anarchist historian, Bill Fishman - East End Jewish Radicals, and East End 1888
But despite the traditions of radicalism this is also a place where the fascists have had a base in the 30s, in the 70s and most memorably when Derek Beacon, became the BNPs first elected councillor on the isle of dogs.
The early history of the East End is recounted in two remarkable history's by anarchist historian, Bill Fishman - East End Jewish Radicals, and East End 1888
But despite the traditions of radicalism this is also a place where the fascists have had a base in the 30s, in the 70s and most memorably when Derek Beacon, became the BNPs first elected councillor on the isle of dogs.
christonabike
Elm Park Bencher
Gwynfor Evans will be turning in his fucking grave
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I read that it was ironic that the woman that destroyed the tin industry, is represented in tinplate.
I also overheard a man on the bus today saying he was considering getting his hands on some eggs in reference to this artwork ; )
I also overheard a man on the bus today saying he was considering getting his hands on some eggs in reference to this artwork ; )
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
My guess is not many people know about Hywel Dda or the Merthyr risings-both sort of hidden histories
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
This might be pertinent to this discussion:
Medecins du Monde publishes findings on so called 'Health Tourism'
Key findings:
* We saw no evidence of the so-called 'health tourist' who comes to the UK seeking expensive treatment. Our patients had been in the UK for an average of 3 years before accessing care.
And our findings confirm what a number of other independent studies have shown, that migrants and British citizens have similar health profiles and that migrants are no more likely to have expensive, complicated medical needs than anyone else.
* We saw a worrying number of pregnant women (118) who had difficulty accessing proper care. Although they were entitled, nearly 70% of the women had no access to care before coming to the clinic. This lack of access puts both mother and child in jeopardy and must be addressed as a matter of urgency.
* Rather than saving money, the proposed government changes on health regulations would only result in greater costs because:
o Lack of GP access means no chance of preventing diseases
o Lack of GP access means no chance of early and affordable treatment of diseases - including those which are contagious
o Lack of GP access is likely to lead to increased pressure on already burdened A&E departments.
Download the full report
http://www.medecinsdumonde.org.uk/doclib/104524-report2007light.pdf
Enquiries/further information
Susan Wright
[email protected]
020 7515 7534
http://www.medecinsdumonde.org.uk/
I don't see them as that hidden.
I learned about Merthyr, the SW Chartists and Rebecca in school - used to be on the curriculum here.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Loads of people know about this kind of stuff from the popular novels of Alexander Cordell. I guess the critical point is that sometimes this kind of history can become domesticated or robbed of its edge. The question is how to link these dead historical events with living movements happening today.
Unfortunately, the left once had a strong tradition of comemorating history and keeping it alive, but this seems to be dwindling. As historian, Tristram Hunt puts it here: "For generations, such recognition of the radical past would have been second nature within the progressive left, and a roll-call of historic struggles won and lost provided the inspirational hinterland for generations of activists"
Incidentally, in Niclas's derrogatory comments about English workers and working class struggle in England, we see more evidence of how Nationalism's left wing face is drenched in national chauvinism and mystification. Frankly his comments about Crewe are moronic, this was a seat that was represented by a Labour MP, if it's now gone Tory, rather than analyse this, he just makes racist glib comments about English workers.
I know Udo's only a cyber-being created to wind up the Welsh left (witness the hilarious counter-demo of the St David's Day parade), but would he please explain what is racist about my earlier comment on Crewe?
(here it is) "If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?"
racist, moronic, chauvinist and mystifying?
.
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
Really?-all i can remember from History lessons was WW2-How Britain wun the War and Russia=bad people
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Niclas, you're an ethnic absolutist.
Damn, my secret's out...
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Let's get down to brass tacks.
Many will remember that Niclas' former party, Forward Wales, was rapped by the socialist left in Wales for its nationalist slogan, "PUTTING WALES FIRST". As is obvious, this can only mean we need to put Wales (rich and poor) ahead of other countries because we are Welsh.
Duly shamed, Niclas and co-thinkers, comes up with a new slogan for "Welsh Socialists" (ie Left Nationalists), "PUTTING WELSH WORKERS FIRST"
But here he ties himself up in even more knots. Does the sentiment of this phrase sound familiar? Isn't it a bit like Gordon Brown's appeal to the working class on a national chauvinist basis rather than class consciusness, "British Jobs for British Workers"?
Hasn't the socialist left always resisted attempts to give industrial struggles a nationalist twist.
For instance, the GMB trade union slogan when Burberry was being closed of "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". Burberry got shut down because the labour and trade union bureaucrats isolated workers through a nationalistic campaign to “Keep Burberry British” and futile appeals to businessmen, media celebrities, churches and royalty to put pressure on Burberry’s CEO Angela Ahrendts to change her mind.
Just to further expound how ridiculous this slogan was:
Imagine if Burberry had decided to keep its base in Treorchy open, and then to cut its workforce in by half, impose worse working conditions etc. It could claim to have met the GMBs demand to "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". The issue is not one of nationality, but class. The socialist and union movement is a global, internationalist movement, a working-class movement of the poor. It has a duty to mobilise its members and supporters on the basis of class interests and therefore to always, always challenge nationalist feeling not to encourage it. The idea of the Nation is a key armament in Ruling Class ideology. Workers need to develop class consciousness. Traditionally reformism has fudged the question by chanelling working class consciousness into change through parliament and the institutions of the nation state.
One can well imagine Plaid Cymru supporters complaining about the slogan, "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH" - Not on the basis of the class analysis above, but rather on the basis, we're not British, we're Welsh.
As stated before: We don't oppose British Nationalism with Welsh Nationalism, we oppose Nationalism with Working Class Internationalism.
Moving onto Crewe. Niclas immediately seeks to explain the transfer of traditional Labour votes to the Tories in terms of the supposed radical difference between Welsh and English workers. Actually we see exactly the same process going on in Wales of the implosion of Labour. For example, where I live traditional Labour voters have switched to LibDem, in other areas it might be Plaid, in some areas it may even be Tory. But it's the same process going on. Of course, there are differences - Wales has a 4 party system, and a different context with the Assembly & issues such as the Welsh language. But Niclas's attempts to divide the working class are a road to nowhere.
Many will remember that Niclas' former party, Forward Wales, was rapped by the socialist left in Wales for its nationalist slogan, "PUTTING WALES FIRST". As is obvious, this can only mean we need to put Wales (rich and poor) ahead of other countries because we are Welsh.
Duly shamed, Niclas and co-thinkers, comes up with a new slogan for "Welsh Socialists" (ie Left Nationalists), "PUTTING WELSH WORKERS FIRST"
But here he ties himself up in even more knots. Does the sentiment of this phrase sound familiar? Isn't it a bit like Gordon Brown's appeal to the working class on a national chauvinist basis rather than class consciusness, "British Jobs for British Workers"?
Hasn't the socialist left always resisted attempts to give industrial struggles a nationalist twist.
For instance, the GMB trade union slogan when Burberry was being closed of "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". Burberry got shut down because the labour and trade union bureaucrats isolated workers through a nationalistic campaign to “Keep Burberry British” and futile appeals to businessmen, media celebrities, churches and royalty to put pressure on Burberry’s CEO Angela Ahrendts to change her mind.
Just to further expound how ridiculous this slogan was:
Imagine if Burberry had decided to keep its base in Treorchy open, and then to cut its workforce in by half, impose worse working conditions etc. It could claim to have met the GMBs demand to "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". The issue is not one of nationality, but class. The socialist and union movement is a global, internationalist movement, a working-class movement of the poor. It has a duty to mobilise its members and supporters on the basis of class interests and therefore to always, always challenge nationalist feeling not to encourage it. The idea of the Nation is a key armament in Ruling Class ideology. Workers need to develop class consciousness. Traditionally reformism has fudged the question by chanelling working class consciousness into change through parliament and the institutions of the nation state.
One can well imagine Plaid Cymru supporters complaining about the slogan, "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH" - Not on the basis of the class analysis above, but rather on the basis, we're not British, we're Welsh.
As stated before: We don't oppose British Nationalism with Welsh Nationalism, we oppose Nationalism with Working Class Internationalism.
Moving onto Crewe. Niclas immediately seeks to explain the transfer of traditional Labour votes to the Tories in terms of the supposed radical difference between Welsh and English workers. Actually we see exactly the same process going on in Wales of the implosion of Labour. For example, where I live traditional Labour voters have switched to LibDem, in other areas it might be Plaid, in some areas it may even be Tory. But it's the same process going on. Of course, there are differences - Wales has a 4 party system, and a different context with the Assembly & issues such as the Welsh language. But Niclas's attempts to divide the working class are a road to nowhere.
We did that too.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
i give it a month before it's totalled by someone...
it's a bit like going the the knesset in isreal and errecting a picture of hitler and say well if it wasn't for him we'd not have a home land now...
can't see isreal every prasing hitler and can't see the welsh standing for glorifaction of thatcher either...
perhaps they could take it down drag it off to offers dyke and stuff it full of hay and once a year have a cermonial burning of it like a welsh angel of the north mixed with the wicker man...
Im thinking someone should don a balaclava and use a super soaker to drench it in acid or something which will do it some damage.
Its the ultimate insult having that evil bitches face on the sennedd
