Text of AF leaflet; No State Solution in Gaza

[In Bloom]

There's two points here. One is that the AF doesn't make any plans for immediate action.

As far as the leaflets go, this is fair enough, and I do think that the leaflets would benefit from more practical stuff on what could be done in the short term (very little, realistically).

Then there's the second point you make - that discussing this is actually counterproductive, and leads to inaction. That's just nonsense. The peace actions of the last 10 years or so have suffered badly from a lack of political discussion. That's why they've been so huge but also so shallow and so unable to go any further than vague humanitarian gestures.

It's also untrue that the AF hasn't been involved in anti-war action against this and previous conflicts. Several of the uni occupations have had a strong AF contingent, we've done everything we can to have a presence on the marches and many of our members continue to be active in anti-arms trade and anti-military groups like Smash EDO and Kick 'em off Campus.

Thinking and acting are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Spion]

As far as the leaflets go, this is fair enough, and I do think that the leaflets would benefit from more practical stuff on what could be done in the short term (very little, realistically).

That's my main point here - that in a leaflet distributed on a march of people angry about a heavily armed state battering an almost defenceless refugee population the key thing isn't to wax lyrical about the class nature of society (altho that has its role) but to suggest action that people can take to stop the aggression, ie by the type of action people (including the AF, to their credit) have been taking and by workplace and consumer boycotts to hit Israel in the pocket and to stop arms supplies reaching them.

As to whether very much is 'realistic', well, nothing is if you don't even raise the idea.

 

[Random]

That's my main point here - that in a leaflet distributed on a march of people angry about a heavily armed state battering an almost defenceless refugee population the key thing isn't to wax lyrical about the class nature of society (altho that has its role) but to suggest action that people can take to stop the aggression, ie by the type of action people (including the AF, to their credit) have been taking and by workplace and consumer boycotts to hit Israel in the pocket and to stop arms supplies reaching them.

So you're taking the line that 'yes, this is true, but it's not the time nor the place to raise it.' When is the right time and place?

 

[Spion]

So you're taking the line that 'yes, this is true, but it's not the time nor the place to raise it.' When is the right time and place?

More like - 'yeah, it's fine to talk about that stuff but you really have to say more than that'.

 

[Random]

More like - 'yeah, it's fine to talk about that stuff but you really have to say more than that'.

Fair enough, I'd not disagree. A test of good theory is whether it can produce useful activity.

 

[In Bloom]

That's my main point here - that in a leaflet distributed on a march of people angry about a heavily armed state battering an almost defenceless refugee population the key thing isn't to wax lyrical about the class nature of society (altho that has its role) but to suggest action that people can take to stop the aggression, ie by the type of action people (including the AF, to their credit) have been taking and by workplace and consumer boycotts to hit Israel in the pocket and to stop arms supplies reaching them.

Mmm, though playing Devil's advocate for a moment, it could be said that there's already plenty of stuff suggesting action, from various groups, but very little giving a serious analysis of the situation and the consequences of supporting various state factions in Palestine.

As to whether very much is 'realistic', well, nothing is if you don't even raise the idea.

Well honestly, there isn't much we can do to influence events in the Middle East. Workers at arms companies might be able to have a major influence by, say, refusing to ship goods to Israel, workers and students at institutions that invest in the arms trade and companies that prop up the Israeli state could force disinvestment with enough effort, but beyond that, what can we do, from the UK to stop the bombs and the blockades? We can support initiatives in Israel and Palestine that might stop it, certainly, but there's very little we can do to directly effect the situation.

 

[Random]

We can support initiatives in Israel and Palestine that might stop it, certainly, but there's very little we can do to directly effect the situation.

There's not very little we can do - there's a lot that can be done if people want to. If you don't think it's a priority, then just say so!

And tbh putting out a leaflet on what's the right way to formulate an issue is a bit pointless if you believe, deep down, that there's nothing that can be done about it.

People in the UK can play a major part in supporting Israeli and palestinian resistance to the occupation, and can even go over and resist it themselves, or support people doing so. The palestinians are at full stretch and the israelis are very isolated, so imo people from the rest of Europe can have a major role in supporting them quite disproportionate to the effort expended.

 

[In Bloom]

There's not very little we can do - there's a lot that can be done if people want to. If you don't think it's a priority, then just say so!

And tbh putting out a leaflet on what's the right way to formulate an issue is a bit pointless if you believe, deep down, that there's nothing that can be done about it.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't twist my words.

There are things we can do, which I've mentioned several times on this thread, and those things are absolutely worth doing. The point is that such actions will never have the kind of major impact that action by people in Israel and Palestine can have and I think it's somewhat dishonest for UK lefties to go around acting like we can end the conflict in the Middle East with action in Western Europe.

 

[Random]

Well honestly, there isn't much we can do to influence events in the Middle East.

We can support initiatives in Israel and Palestine that might stop it, certainly, but there's very little we can do to directly effect the situation.

have the guts to defend what you actually wrote, for goodness sake.

edit: of course, if you're taking them back or clarifying them that's another matter. Of course people on the ground can do a lot more, but support in the UK can have major influence on how people on the ground can operate.

And remember that the audience for a leaflet given out on a demo is made up of people who probably do want to do something significant to stop the killing.

 

[In Bloom]

have the guts to defend what you actually wrote, for goodness sake.

edit: of course, if you're taking them back or clarifying them that's another matter. Of course people on the ground can do a lot more, but support in the UK can have major influence on how people on the ground can operate.

And remember that the audience for a leaflet given out on a demo is made up of people who probably do want to do something significant to stop the killing.

There's a difference between what I said (that there's not much we can do) and what you've attributed to me (that there's nothing we can do and/or that the situation is "not a priority"). One is an issue of agency (the struggle of the oppressed is necessarily central to any struggle against oppression), the other is saying that we cannot or should not do anything.

 

[Random]

there's very little we can do to directly effect the situation.

and I said

There's not very little we can do - there's a lot that can be done if people want to.

Are you hung over or something?

 

[In Bloom]

and I said

Are you hung over or something?

You also said:

And tbh putting out a leaflet on what's the right way to formulate an issue is a bit pointless if you believe, deep down, that there's nothing that can be done about it.

(emphasis mine)

 

[butchersapron]

Amnesty Int

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Hamas’ deadly campaign in the shadow of the war in Gaza
Since the end of December 2008, during and after the Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics.

At least two dozen men have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen in this period. Scores of others have been shot in the legs, kneecapped or inflicted with other injuries intended to cause permanent disability, subjected to severe beatings which have caused multiple fractures and other injuries, or otherwise tortured or ill-treated.

The targets of Hamas’ deadly campaign include former detainees accused of “collaborating” with the Israeli army who escaped from Gaza’s Central Prison when it was bombed by Israeli forces on 28 December 2008, as well as former members of the Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces and other activists of PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah party.

The campaign began shortly after the beginning of the three-week Israeli military offensive against the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008 and continued after a ceasefire took effect on 18 January 2009.

Most of the victims were abducted from their homes; they were later dumped – dead or injured – in isolated areas, or were found dead in the morgue of one of Gaza’s hospitals. Some were shot dead in the hospitals where they were receiving treatment for injuries they sustained in the Israeli bombardment of Gaza’s Central Prison. The perpetrators of these attacks did not conceal their weapons or keep a low profile, but, on the contrary, behaved in a carefree and confident – almost ostentatious – manner.