Terrorists

[munkeeunit]

Munkeeunit: No, I did not mean to suggest that the "Anti-War Movement" as a wehole had anything at all to do with that. niether did the referenced paper. My comment was with regard to "Anti-Zionism" often being a guise for baltant "Anti -Jewish" acts and thoughts.

As this thread has addressed this issue, and that I've made clear I see no evidence of a wider conspiracy of this, but share these concerns, in Bristol we are curently being targeted by a new group called N9S, which is a tiny 'National Socialist Party'. It is avowedly pro-hitler, but also anti-war, and uses the term anti-zionism instead of the anti-semitism it really is, in this case.

I hope this also makes clear that I, and others, are alert to this problem, and while it is a tiny minority, they do hide-out within the anti-war movement.

I hope it also makes clear that I am not biased here, and I continue to urge R18 to look deeper into the Palestianian perspective, and the loss of life pointed to above by Moono. If we were to simply count the dead in this conflict, Palestine would win hands down as the greater victims in this conflict. Unless of course people seek to muddy the issue by looking back further than before 1948.

 

[rachamim18]

Munkeeunit: Instead of a cute bon mot, try showing my bias in action by proving my facts are distorted. See, it is real simple to point fingers when you fail to provide anything of substance I provide a ton of facts, much of which is disputed here but noone [including you] ever provides proof that they are wrong Telling indeed.

"Palestinian prospective?" I believe I have already mentioned that I post in a few "Palestinian" forums, both in Arabic and in English In addition, I am Israeli which means I know more "Palestinians" than everyone on this forum put together. So safe to say, I am well aware of the whole spectrum of "Palestinan" ideology

Since you have chosen to parade the disparity in body counts, and since you probably have not seen me explain this to Moono [and a couple of others] a dozen times [at least], will show you why the figures mean nothing.

The total number inclused militants who died in the commission of terror acts against Israel and its people [in almost every counting] For others, there is no breakdown on demographics Were the dead members of outlawed terror orginisations? Did a third party witness the death? Was a forensices investigation ever conducted? Was an autopsy ever conducted? was any physical evidence ever obtained [other than the deceased]? Was the death captured on film?

See, even IF Israel were reponsible for each and everyone of the deaths attributed to it, and it is certainly not, it means nothing.The underdog is always right? That is childish nonsense. That is a non-issue though since the deaths that were not actual terrorists killed while committing acts of violence, NEVER come with any backing evidence Israel is innundated with so called "Peace Activists" and "Checkpoint Monitors" who shadow every move of the IDF and other state apparattus. How come they never provide anything other than anecdotes? They almost all have cameras. What about cctv? The area in question is one of the most heavily monitored in the world and yet not a shred of film ever makes one of these stories real. Really, you should think a bit befow parroting meaningless propaganda...

As for "back before 1948..." Bravo EXACTLY Let us start with 1919 when the Arabs refused the orginal Partition [most often errnoeously listed as the 1921 Partition]. How about 1920 when the Arabs began the communal violence by massacarring the inhabitants of two Jewish towns, Tel Chai and Metullah, followed by the infamous Nabi Musa onslaught which ushered in the 16 year period of Arab violence that went unanswered until 1936! How about 1922 when Trans-Jordan was created out of the bulk of the Arab [refused] Partion? I can go on and on. Jews did not commit any atrocities until 1936 so save your breath, and even then were never able to match the orgiastic violence witnessed in that 16 year period...Quite correct when you suggest looking prior to 48, just not in the manner you envisioned.

Moono: I just provided you with 5 glaring ceasefire violations the other day and you pretend as if you never heard of them "Largely maintained?" Really? assams? Bomb belts? Prematurely detonating human bombs? Please... think that I will either offer a comprehensive list of HAMAS' clear violations either here or in a new thread to shut you down since the 5 violations over 4 different days just went in one ear.

As for keeping score, how many times have I bothered to waste my time showing you how your figures are meaningless since they have no context or breakdown [not tomention conclusive attribution]?

 

[astronaut]

Which Palestinian forums do you post on?

 

[moono]

Since August 2004 Hamas have largely maintained a ceasefire. That is the general consensus. During that time the IOF have killed almost eight hundred Palestinians, many of them women, many of them children, many of them unassociated with any Resistance to Zionism.

The IOF PR department attempts to soften these figures, as Rachamim does, by claiming these victims were, mainly, terrorists. They can't claim they were ALL terrorists because of the third party observations and witnesses which Rachamim denies exist. However, the Zionist government considers the entire Palestinian Authority to be 'enemy' and kills, with virtual impunity, any Palestinian that gets in its way on the grounds that they are 'planning terror attacks'.
They kill children by design, with sniper scopes, and unarmed Palestinians as a matter of course. Ex-IOF soldiers have reported this and it is a matter of record, a record which Rachamim denies exists. They arrest and imprison at will as part of the plan to undermine any Palestinian infrastructure. Business don't function when the proprietor is in the slammer for six months as a 'suspect'.

So, eight hundred Palestinian dead since August 2004 and it is Hamas which America calls 'terrorist' as American citizens take advantage of the theft of Palestinian land, and the murder of its occupants, in their quest for their Zionist ideal.

The apartheid Zionist State continues to ethnically cleanse and build its 'barrier', a stockade for Palestinians which the Israeli government, after years of denial until construction was advanced, has admitted is a political border.

Rachamim, an amateur Zionist propagandaist, trolls through forums with a list of fabrications and deceptions designed to show Zionism in a favourable light. By attempting to smear members as 'racists' and 'anti-Semites' ( a misnomer) he hopes to silence criticism of the fascist actions of the divisive and fascist Zionist government.

He describes the murder of a Palestinian schoolgirl, a murder perpetrated by an IOF officer by means of emptying his weapon into the girl's prostrate body, by saying 'it was a good kill'. That's the Zionist mentality. Crush it. It plays on post-war sympathies for European vagrants whilst it foments its scheme for making vagrants out of Palestinians. Don't support anything Israeli until Israelis rid themselves of Zionism.

 

[munkeeunit]

Since you have chosen to parade the disparity in body counts, and since you probably have not seen me explain this to Moono [and a couple of others] a dozen times [at least], will show you why the figures mean nothing.

It is unfortunately clear to me now that you are beyond reason.

How crass. How cold.

Even throughout the troubles within Ireland, many of those even within the IRA, and UDF, etc (Pro-Union 'terrorists) were deeply troubled by their actions, and certainly felt substantially more than nothing as the death toll figures mounted on the opposing side. While most remain unapolgetic for their actions in principle, on both sides, both sides are increasingly seeking reconcilliation and forgiveness.

You are in denial of the worst kind, and clearly need to dehumanise your enemy to justify that.

 

[rachamim18]

Astronaut: A wide range, a couple off the top of my head: Abu Mahjoob's, Iman's Way, Ummah, although only the first is "Palestinian" per se. If you would like a list I can p.m. it. It helps to keep an open mind and try to learn from other view points. I also post on Arab Christian sites, etc., etc.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: It is almost comical already, the way you constantly ignore whatever does not fit with your narrow view. You offer the body count, which you have done 13 times already that I have counted [in only the time I have been back which is like 5 weeks now]. Each time [before] I explained why it was utterly meaningless. Yet you persist.


I have NEVER claimed that most Arab dead were "terrorists," either has any official Israeli agency or publication. However, some were. Most however were inncoent Arabs, killed violently. The issue however is not that they died but who killed them and why? Without autopsies how can anyone say how they died? How can they even suggest Israelis without even a bullet to show? "Well Israelius were conducting an operation downthe alley." GREAT. Then provide a trajectory report [at the very least] before hanging it on Israel.


Are you aware that every single "Checkpoint" and Border Crossing is staffed with volunteer "Activists" who use film and video to record all goings on? What about the same "Avtivists" who shadow most moves by Israeli authories on any operation? People die yet no film supports the accusations. Or if film somehow manages to make it to the surface it is doctored as with Ms. Corrie kneeling in supplication beforethe D9s with a treeline that was never there.


"Israeli soldiers have reported killing Arab children by design?" Really Moono? Please provide an attributed source. Not a "Palestinian" site with an "unnamed Israeli soldier." Offer us a witnesses testimony BACKED UP BY HARD EVIDENCE.


"Israeli soldiers imprison innocent Arabs in hopes of undermining the [almost non-esixstent] 'Palestinian' infrastructure?" Are you aware that although Israel does have wide powers in pretrial detention, thereis complete judicial oversight? That all detainees rights are fully protected? Do you know that IF the PA did its job and arrested militants and otherlawbreakers, Israel would not even have to maintain an authoritative presence in the "Territories?" IF Israel wanted to destroy hopes of a "Palestinian State," it couldhave done so easily, decades ago. srael did not leave Gaza in order to sbjugate Arabs. It is not leaving the "West Bank" because it is hungry for land. It is uniltaerally declaring borders so that it may finally have the semblance of peace and the end result is that Arabs can do what they want. If they want statehood after refusing it since 1919, go for it. Either way, they will have to sink or swim and people like you will have to accept some hard reality.


"HAMAS is called terrorist." Does HAMAS have a Charter that calls for the extermination of EVERY Jew on Earth? Please answer that.

When and where did the Israeli Govt. "admit its blunder" aboutthe "Barrier?" Please answer.

Actually Moono, I do not hope to "show Zionismin a favourable light. " I do hope however to have people rationally examine ALL the facts and make their own decisons. See, I think that when people do that they will see that things are neither white nor black.

"Smearing members as racists and anti-Jeiwsh." Well, what do you call referring to a 42 year old Jewish man as a "Jew-boy?" Please answer.

I won't ask the same about "shyster" because I have seen you backpedal that one for a good while already. the more rational members of the board have already harshly criticsed you for that yet you rode it out and now have 2 or 3 other members who support you and you think that you have proved soemthing. Well you have Moono, you have. Just answer the question about "Jew-boy." Thanks.

Um, I hate to break this to you Moono, but no "IDF officer emptied his weapon into a prostrate girl." An IDF officer did fire a "confirmation shot" into a prostrate girl, as is common and accepted [as well as safe] practice in combat. The girl perfectly fit the modus operandi of a so called "suicide bomber." If you enter a kill zone, run towards an armed position, carrying a medium sized satchel, in an areas where it represents a bombing run, you can count on risking your life...and if you repeatedly ignore shouted commands in three languages, you can bet you will die. A "good kill" is a euphanism for "legal kill." I have already advised you to speak to soemone with at least a cusrsory knowledge of combat and combat jargon. You obviously have relied on your worn "Palestinian" sites. So be it.

 

[rachamim18]

Munkeeunit: "How crass, how cold." There, in a nutshell, is your problem personafied. You cannot hope to examine a heated subject EMOTIONALLY and come out with any ratioanl understanding. To understand such a complex and pressing problem, you need to try and remove as much emotion as possible. Would I be able to discuss so called "suicide bombings" [I have actually witnessed 2 take place, and have seen the aftermath of 5 others] if I allowed myself to recall helping collect what remained of a 2 year old girl's brain matter? Or what of the 14 year old retarded Arab boy in Rafah who used to hang around our base, before his neighbours tried to wire him up to kill us? He cried evertime he saw us pass in a jeep. Would I be able to discuss any of this? Of course not. See, I am not hear to trump anyone with intellectual prowess or ego. I am here for the same reason that I post on "Palestinian" sites as well as on extreme right wing Israeli sites, to hopefully learn and help others learn about a complex situation that tells a whole lot about the human condition. People like you see me state things plainly and unemotionally and ignorantly jump to conclusions. but by doing so you fail to realise that you condemn yourself to the same things you accuse me of! Close minded? Presumptuous? Dehumanisation? Take a look at yourself please.

 

[munkeeunit]

You are very wrong to call me ignorant. I clearly have a lot of knowledge of the issue of 'terrorism', from an Irish perspective. I've come to terms with having to reconcile myself with Northern Irish, and think about their dead.

I am however, going to pull out the middle eastern section for a few days, and dig a little deeper into the archives.

There is clearly a very deep and protracted 'feud' occuring here, and I need more time to ascertain the various characters on these threads, and what has so far been said to who, before I comment further on these issues.

I will see you all again shortly.

 

[rachamim18]

Munkeeunit: Well said. I admire the sentiment.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

You offer the body count, which you have done 13 times already that I have counted [in only the time I have been back which is like 5 weeks now]. Each time [before] I explained why it was utterly meaningless. Yet you persist.

Of course I persist. Rachamim is a known liar. The figures come from quality sources, not the propaganda department of the Zionist invader.

You have asked for back-up to the accusations levelled at the fascist Zionist State . Thank you for the opportunity. You are a priceless asset to the Resistance .

Casualty Statistics
Detailed, reliable casualty statistics are hard to find for any warzone. This section offers links to sources that offer information about Palestinians and Israelis killed and injured in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/219.shtml

Killed and wounded including method of wounding ( Burials take place quickly )
http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm

Sources;
The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies
http://www.ifrc.org/

So, the Red Cross and the Red Crescent Societies lie and Rachamim knows the truth ?

Rachamim;

Each time [before] I explained why it was utterly meaningless. Yet you persist

Yes, I persist.

Rachamim;

it was a good kill

You're the reason why I persist.

 

[ninjacat]

in Bristol we are curently being targeted by a new group called N9S, which is a tiny 'National Socialist Party'.

Why do you think that people should pay particular attention to your situation when hundreds of thousands of Arabs are being slaughtered in the middle east? If you had any soul you would be fighting for Palestians and Iraqis and Afghanis and so on. In fact it appears to me that Israelis can't be happier than when innocent Palestianian children are being killed.

 

[ninjacat]

1

 

[ninjacat]

During the Forensic Masters we studied the psychopathology (if any) of terrorists which naturally included investigating just what is terrorism in the first place.

Having a look at the essay we were asked to write, I found that like so many human behaviours, defining terrorism is tricky. The most obvious reason for this is that it is subjective. One scholar's 'terrorism' is another scholar's 'guerilla' or 'freedom fighter'.

Moreover, terrorism may be categorised in different ways: E.g. 1. Domestic terrorism, international terrorism, state-sponsored terrorism; 2. Revolutionary terrorism, political terrorism, nationalist terrorism, cause-based terrorism, genocide-based terrorism, etc. And some of these categories may overlap.

Crenshaw (1992) describes terrorism as “a particular style of political violence, involving attacks on a small number of victims in order to influence a wider audience”.

Too simplistic for some. Spot on in the minds of others. Me? I'm on the fence about it.

As for the selective use of the American definition, I can't say I'm at all surprised.

Education does have that effect...

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Yes you do persist, and you also persist in not qualifying your having done so. You also have not answered what it means. The higher number of bodies somehow means innocence or justification to you?
As for my being a known liar, please demonstrate one case of my ever having lied here. Guess what, you are about to prove yourself a known liar for not being able to back it up.


Now, in all those links provided by your highly partisan source, AND NOT ONE, SINGLE BREAKDOWN OF AMMO, NOT ONE THIRD HAND WITNESS OR VERIFICATION, NOT ONE TRAJECTORY, AUTOPSY, FILM, OR PHOTO TO PROVE THAT ISRAELIS DID ANY OF THE ATTRIBUTED DEATHS.

Of course some ARe attributed to Israel. However, your links are worthless other than to see how many people are injured , period. There is no way to qualify a death. It purports to show types of ammo. Really? where is the caliber? Where is the grain. Israeli ammo is very specific. Even there though, Israeli weapons do end up in "Palestinian" hands. You would still need trajectories and other evidence and verification.

"Killed and wounded?" where ? there is nothing but the same statistics repeated in the first hyper link. Again, no autopsies or forensics.

"Does the IRC and RCS lie?" Well, aside from your statistics being meaningless, they certainly do lie! In this case they merely commit a common faux paux in erroneously attributing deaths to Israel that have not even had a cursory investigation. In this they are joined by good intentioned groups lie Human rights Watch, Physicians Without Borders, and so on. One picks up the story, others follow suit. Aside from this, IRC and Crescent DO LIE! Crescent employs known terrorists as well as [at times] allowing their ambulances and other vehichles to be used in transport of terrorists and equipment. Crescent pressures the IRC NOT to allow the admission of Magen David [the Israeli equivalent] based purely on sectarian and partisan concerns. should I continue?


Ninjacat: Yes, Israelis are monsters. They use children's blood in ceremonies. All inductees are specially trained in Part B of Basic on how to kill infants and evade detection by "Activists" on every corner. If they are really good at it, they get to go to Command Seargents' School and then Designated Marksmen where they learn to shoot around corners , through walls, and across dimensions in order to kill schoolkids. Then as a reward, they get to go to the next gathering of the Elders where they are able to learn the truth behind the Protocols and how their ancestor's faked the Holocaust. You are very observant. You have caught ZOG!!! You get a free bag of chewing tobacco and a date with your sister! Have fun, I did!

 

[moono]

As for my being a known liar, please demonstrate one case of my ever having lied here. Guess what, you are about to prove yourself a known liar for not being able to back it up.

Sure. You've called me a racist. That's a lie.

When challenged to provide evidence of my 'racism' you've failed to do so. That's proof enough.
That's just my personal experience. Others have you down for lying in other areas.

Back it up ? Well, there ya go.


The Red Cross lie and employ terrorists ? Do stfu, Rachamim. You're a paranoid monster.

 

[ninjacat]

Ninjacat: Yes, Israelis are monsters. They use children's blood in ceremonies. All inductees are specially trained in Part B of Basic on how to kill infants and evade detection by "Activists" on every corner. If they are really good at it, they get to go to Command Seargents' School and then Designated Marksmen where they learn to shoot around corners , through walls, and across dimensions in order to kill schoolkids. Then as a reward, they get to go to the next gathering of the Elders where they are able to learn the truth behind the Protocols and how their ancestor's faked the Holocaust. You are very observant. You have caught ZOG!!! You get a free bag of chewing tobacco and a date with your sister! Have fun, I did!

This is so typical of you, yes I know you from watching you. Hate, confusion, superiority. Wh-o-oah!!! Go fuck yourself! Shithead

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is so typical of you, yes I know you from watching you. Hate, confusion, superiority. Wh-o-oah!!! Go fuck yourself! Shithead

Thing is, you're doing exactly what he wants by reacting emotionally rather than logically. If you reply logically he more often than not ends up looking like the rectum he assuredly is.

He's not here to debate, he's here to close down discourse. Take a trip through his posting history and you'll see what I mean.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Proof of your raicsm? Hmmm...calling a 42 year old Jewish man a Jewboy rings the bell for me.


The Red Cross? Careful, you will make me provide proof of that as well and look even worse than you already do.


Ninjacat: Yepper, tha's me.

Panda: As if you actually talk about issues. Posting history? Simply look above. You are too simple.

 

[Jonti]

The Red Cross? ... you will make me provide proof of that

Go on then.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: Proof of your raicsm? Hmmm...calling a 42 year old Jewish man a Jewboy rings the bell for me.

I've noticed a few things 'ring the bell' for you; 'nubile schoolgirls', 'good kills', 'killing zones'. You've had more rings than Quasimodo.

 

[nino_savatte]

Moono: Proof of your raicsm? Hmmm...calling a 42 year old Jewish man a Jewboy rings the bell for me.


The Red Cross? Careful, you will make me provide proof of that as well and look even worse than you already do.


Ninjacat: Yepper, tha's me.

Panda: As if you actually talk about issues. Posting history? Simply look above. You are too simple.

Hang on, didn't you allege that the word "shyster" was "anti-semitic", even when it was pointed out to you that was not true? Even astronaut, a fellow Zionist, had to admit that "shyster" was not anti-semitic, so why persist?

As for history, your take on history is a narrativisation of events.

Proof is something that you demand of others but are reluctant to provide yourself. This shows me (and the rest of us) that you have no intention of discussing anything and are here to browbeat others into accepting your ethno-centric position.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: As if you actually talk about issues. Posting history? Simply look above. You are too simple.

Of course I am simple. Compared to the great Rachamim, the man who knows everything, none of us are anything more than motes of dust before his wisdom.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: Yes, on the Mid-East and opiates/opioid...Certainly well rounded. Thank you sweety.


Jonti: I will enjoy that. I have a couple of other things to do first but expect it soon.

Nino: Why would I suddenly stop defending something I believe in because "Astronaut" agreed aginst me? A person who thinks "anti-Semitism" is a word only belonging to Jews? I think for myself. I guess it is because he and I are both Jewish. Then why not ask why I do not stop because of Panda? Or Frogwoman?

I am reluctant to provide proof? How so? Trot out that Chomsky nonsense again? How could I prove that I have read a book unless you quizz me in real time? You make no sense. All I would have to do is Google relevant keywords otherwise. You really are ounding simple.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Why would I suddenly stop defending something I believe in because "Astronaut" agreed aginst me? A person who thinks "anti-Semitism" is a word only belonging to Jews? I think for myself. I guess it is because he and I are both Jewish. Then why not ask why I do not stop because of Panda? Or Frogwoman?

I am reluctant to provide proof? How so? Trot out that Chomsky nonsense again? How could I prove that I have read a book unless you quizz me in real time? You make no sense. All I would have to do is Google relevant keywords otherwise. You really are ounding simple.

You're a liar...and you aren't a very good one at that. You never, ever provide proof but demand that others provide it. We aren't here to serve you nor are we here to take your bullying lying down.

Once again, in this post, you prove how dishonest you are. What Chomsky has to do with this is anyone's guess. Though I suspect, in your desperation to save face, you merely dragged his name in as a deflection.

You claimed once to have read Chomsky then your argument fell apart when you were asked to summarise what he had said...you couldn't do it.

You also claimed that the word "shyster" was "anti-semitic", this too is a fiction but yet you persist. You aren;t here to debate or discuss, you are here for two reasons: to close down any discourse that doesn't conform to your narrow, ethno-centric position and to wind up posters.

You're intellectually dishonest and you are a bully. Neither of those things is incorrect in your case.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm still waiting (over a year now) for his proof that old man Chomsky is an anti-Semite.
Remember when he posted a link to that ridiculous right-wing website, and got laughed at by everyone (even the rightwingers) on this forum? He said he had independent proof at home and that he'd post it. He hasn't.

He probably hasn't been able to find anything on google that wasn't written by square-heads or loonspuds.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm still waiting (over a year now) for his proof that old man Chomsky is an anti-Semite.
Remember when he posted a link to that ridiculous right-wing website, and got laughed at by everyone (even the rightwingers) on this forum? He said he had independent proof at home and that he'd post it. He hasn't.

He probably hasn't been able to find anything on google that wasn't written by square-heads or loonspuds.

Aye, I remember it well. Sometimes I think R18 is a spotty faced adoloscent geek, with no friends and bad b.o. who spends most of his time fixed at his PC screen fantasising about being in the IDF.

He probably pores over mags like Gun & Game wanking himself feverishly at the sight of all those weapons.

 

[moono]

The landing is the killing zone and he tortures prisoners in the wardrobe.

 

[nino_savatte]

The landing is the killing zone and he tortures prisoners in the wardrobe.

You can see him melting the 'enemy' section of his toy soldier collection.

 

[ZAMB]

You can see him melting the 'enemy' section of his toy soldier collection.

Probably, but I bet he tells himself that they are all 'good kills'!