Terrorists

[nino_savatte]

Nio: No, Armored dozers doing demolitions on houses that have either been illegaly built or illegaly used is not a form of terrorism. It is a viable enforcement and security tool . In fact, many Western nations seize such properties and then profit off of them. Israel destroys them.


However, using such houses as entrances and exits to smuggling tunnels, used to transport caps and plastique is a form of terroism so close, but no cigar.

Wrong, it is a form of terrorism because there is not only a deliberate targetting of civilians; there is also the use of armoured bulldozers and other forms of heavy armour against a largely unarmed population which helps to define these things as acts of terror.

Apologise all you like.

Noun 1. terrorism - the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whereas 62% of Israelis want all arabs out of Israel. They don't want to absorb Arabs into their society - they want them gone.

Exactly. The two (Israel/Palestine and West Germany/East Germany) aren't really analogous, given that the West German state and many of its' citizens wanted to re-absorb the DDR, and many of the East Germans wanted that too.
However, in Israel/Palestine "abolition" of Palestine could certainly be said to be on the agenda (whatever Rachamim might claim to the contrary).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wrong, it is a form of terrorism because it is not only a deliberate targetting of civilians; it is also the the use of armoured bulldozers and other forms of heavy armour against a largely unarmed population which helps to define these acts as forms of terror.

Apologise all you like.

Oddly enough, during the mandate the vast majority of Jewish incomers did indeed view the use of bulldozers and/or demolition charges to destroy illegal housing by mandate authorities as "terrorism".

Perhaps Rachamim is as selective (or, to put it in plain language, hypocritical) about who can commit terrorism and how terrorism is defined as many of Israel's political elite have been.

 

[TAE]

I thought it translated more to "re-absorption" than "abolition"?

Actually is was simply the commitment to seeking re-unification.

Amounts to the same thing. And they did it! The GDR no longer exists.

 

[TAE]

Whereas 62% of Israelis want all arabs out of Israel. They don't want to absorb Arabs into their society - they want them gone.

I was actually relating it to Hamas not recognising Israel's right to exist.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: "HAMAS has maintained a ceasefire since August 2004 and has not even knocked off a Jew's skullcap, let alone killed one..." Funny, I will just offer you 5 clear violations , by HAMASS in that time period. Then I will wait for your admission of error;

I] 1/19/05 : HAMAS operative detonates a so called "suicide bomb" in Rafah and kills 1 Israeli, wounds 8 others. Group takes official responsability to both Israeli and Arab media and distributes leaflets lauding the "operation.".

II] 2/10/05: Just after noon HAMAS takes responsability in both Israeli and and Arab media for 33 LAW, Qassam, and mortar attacks on S'derot [in Israel] just that morning. Noone injured but well over 3 million US in damage to residential buildings was reported.

III] 2/11/05: That morning HAMAS takes credit via Arab and Israeli press for 46 more attacks since noon the day before. Aside from 1 Israeli being seriously injured by a Qassam, upwards of 1 million US in combined property damage was reported, including residential homes. All in Israel proper.

IV] 5/17/05: A HAMAS operative on Philadelphi near Rafah prematurely detonates the bomb belt he was wearing. Only person killed or injured was himself.

V] 5/18/05: PA Police under International pressure attempt to impede HAMAS mortar fire at one site in central Gaza. They are repelled by small and medium arms fire in 2 attempts. The 2nd attempt results in 1 PA Police officer being injured by gunfire. The attacks FROM the site continue and injure 4 people at the Israeli "Settlement" bloc of Gush Katif.


Hmmm. Well Moono, sounds like a bit more than a "Jew's skullcap" gor blown off...right?

Panda: Sorry, have read and reread it a total of three times just now and it is still as muddled as it was the very first time. Perhaps you might try to stop reaching so much?

"Abolition of 'Palestine' is definitely on the egenda..." Right. That is why Gaza was abandoned and the "West Bank: will be in 2.5 years. Got it.

ZAMB: Please provide the information regarding the purported poll that claimed that "62% of Israelis want ALL Arabs out of Israel." I will be fair and let you know that the number represents something like 9 out of 10 Jewish Israelis. It is impossible. Simply using the registered viters for parties that have Arab candidates and comembers shows the number you have presented to be spurious.

The "Israeli Democracy Institute?"? Nice...Can you spell "communist?" Sigh...You even fail to realise the irony of an Arab member of K'nesset reportedly accusing Israel of being the region's most racist state. I don't suppose you might tell me how many Jews serve in the Saudi government? Lebanese? Syrian? Even Jordanian or Egyptian which are at peace with it!

"A grim picture as corruption has risen." First of all, although there is corruption there, it is far scarcer than anywhere else in the region. What does that have to do with the issue at hand anyway? Just another weak attempt at denigration.

Nino: "Using armored dozers in home demolitions is a form of terrorism because it deliberately targets civilains." Surely even you must realise how ridiulous that sounds. How would a dozer attack militants? May I ask, in your country, what does the government do when a domicile has been used for criminal purposes? What does it do when a domicile or other building has been built without any permits or even a deed?


Notice the "Freedictionary" definition you list is almost identical to the one offered by me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Sorry, have read and reread it a total of three times just now and it is still as muddled as it was the very first time. Perhaps you might try to stop reaching so much?

Given that no-one else had a problem comprehending my point I think you'll find it isn't me "reaching" that's the problem, but your ignorance.

"Abolition of 'Palestine' is definitely on the egenda..." Right. That is why Gaza was abandoned and the "West Bank: will be in 2.5 years. Got it.

Of course the West Bank will, around the time pigs start flying. There's a difference between political promises and claims, and promises made by honest parties.

The West Bank tietable claims are about as credible as a claim that George W. Bush fought in Vietnam, reached the rank of colonel and won 3 CMHs.

 

[ninjacat]

Why do you give space to R18s stone-age thinking? It's beyond me. Is he the resident zio-fascist and therefore a cute pet to be cultivated to show that people here are not anti-semitic? Like the token black friend? His views encourage anti-semitism. Who could love an Israeli after reading his verbal diarrhoea? Fortunately, I have met Israelis who do not conform to the hateful and narrow-minded stereotype that R18 presents. Why does Urban encourage this? Free speech? Why argue with him, he seems set in his ways, and not likely to give up his stone-age thinking. What a totally repulsive human being.

 

[munkeeunit]

I don't find your language very reassuring. I generally don't agree with R18 either, but a 'totally repulsive human being'. Please. Spare us the displeasure of your crass, nasty dehumanising insults. Thanks.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: I will ignore the jocking and address your one coherent point. As far as "pigs flying," you were one of the people who said the same on Gaza. I am old enough to remember people saying the same on Sinai. IT WILL HAPPEN because demographics dictate it. Bet your last dollar. Israel will NEVER willingly cede its Zionist character. Watch out for those porkers!

"The timetable." WOW! Then you will be amazed to learn that it has already begun under Sharon with the cedeing of 5 towns , the dissolution of 3 "Settlements" and 22 illegal "outposts." Amazing stuff to you I am sure.

Ninjacat: And yet you were the one who posted to merely attack me. See, the difference between us [usually although I am debasing myself currently] is that I post on issues, not personalities [although that is difficult sometimes with the dearth of actual conversation].

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: "HAMAS has maintained a ceasefire since August 2004 and has not even knocked off a Jew's skullcap, let alone killed one..."

Funny, I will just offer you 5 clear violations , by HAMASS in that time period. Then I will wait for your admission of error;

I] 1/19/05 : HAMAS operative detonates a so called "suicide bomb" in Rafah and kills 1 Israeli, wounds 8 others. Group takes official responsability to both Israeli and Arab media and distributes leaflets lauding the "operation.".

II] 2/10/05: Just after noon HAMAS takes responsability in both Israeli and and Arab media for 33 LAW, Qassam, and mortar attacks on S'derot [in Israel] just that morning. Noone injured but well over 3 million US in damage to residential buildings was reported.

III] 2/11/05: That morning HAMAS takes credit via Arab and Israeli press for 46 more attacks since noon the day before. Aside from 1 Israeli being seriously injured by a Qassam, upwards of 1 million US in combined property damage was reported, including residential homes. All in Israel proper.

IV] 5/17/05: A HAMAS operative on Philadelphi near Rafah prematurely detonates the bomb belt he was wearing. Only person killed or injured was himself.

V] 5/18/05: PA Police under International pressure attempt to impede HAMAS mortar fire at one site in central Gaza. They are repelled by small and medium arms fire in 2 attempts. The 2nd attempt results in 1 PA Police officer being injured by gunfire. The attacks FROM the site continue and injure 4 people at the Israeli "Settlement" bloc of Gush Katif.


Hmmm. Well Moono, sounds like a bit more than a "Jew's skullcap" gor blown off...right?

My sources state August 2004, yours May 2005. The point is that Hamas have largely maintained a ceasefire since August 2004.
Now I'm going to list IOF attacks since August 2004 and see how they stack up. How many Palestinian dead do you guesstimate , 150, 200 ?

 

[ZAMB]

Rachamim;


My sources state August 2004, yours May 2005. The point is that Hamas have largely maintained a ceasefire since August 2004.
Now I'm going to list IOF attacks since August 2004 and see how they stack up. How many Palestinian dead do you guesstimate , 150, 200 ?

I think too, that there is a tendency among western journalists [I heard it again yesterday on the BBC] to say that every Palestinian attack is the work of Hamas.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Using armored dozers in home demolitions is a form of terrorism because it deliberately targets civilains." Surely even you must realise how ridiulous that sounds. How would a dozer attack militants? May I ask, in your country, what does the government do when a domicile has been used for criminal purposes? What does it do when a domicile or other building has been built without any permits or even a deed?

Now I know you aren't who you say you are. here you misrepresent what I said in my post but it's the way you say "Surely even you must realise how ridiulous that sounds. How would a dozer attack militants". How is it "ridiculous"?

It's interesting how you appear to have ignored salient aspects of history to suit your shaky thesis. I suspect you are another white Xtian nazi nutter who is posing as a Jew.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: I will ignore the jocking and address your one coherent point. As far as "pigs flying," you were one of the people who said the same on Gaza.

I "said the same on Gaza"? Really?
Post evidence or retract.

I am old enough to remember people saying the same on Sinai. IT WILL HAPPEN because demographics dictate it. Bet your last dollar.

I didn't say it wouldn't. I said it wouldn't be by the proposed timeframe.

Israel will NEVER willingly cede its Zionist character. Watch out for those porkers!

Surely you're not claiming to speak for "Israel" or all the people of Israel?
If not then your above statement is just wind.

"The timetable." WOW! Then you will be amazed to learn that it has already begun under Sharon with the cedeing of 5 towns , the dissolution of 3 "Settlements" and 22 illegal "outposts." Amazing stuff to you I am sure.

I won't be "amazed to learn" anything of the sort because I already know about it. An inch of movement isn't a mile.
Perhaps you should stop posting propaganda and stick to facts?

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: No, my sources do not state May 2005. That was only a few days picked at random. Up until last week, HAMAS has continued with violence toawards Israel. Furthermore, even if that had been the case, you should admit that you were wrong instead of trying to make more excuses for HAMAS.

Furthremore, Israeli violations, if there are any, does negate the reponsibility of HAMAS in this area. As for the body counts, as I have challenged you several times already, please explain just what that has to do with anything. Does it negate HAMAS' illegal status? does it mean that HAMAS is automatically correct? What does it mean?

ZAMB: Glad to see what you think. However, HAMAS itself took credit as I stated [or did you not read my post?].

Nino: OFF TOPIC.

Panda: As soon as I have time, I will trawl the archived threads, it should not be too difficult, and find one example of your having doubted Israel's stated intent to leave Gaza.

"Proposed timeframe." That just might be but I do feel Olmert is truly striving for it. Kadimah has built its entire platform around this premise and as such, Olmert must deliver or else his career, and quite possibly Kadimah are finished. the original plan was for 2010, not it has been shaved to 2008. I would guess it will be inbetween those two numbers. Quitely, Israel has already been dismanteling the small outposts "Settlers" soemtimes erect.

Do I claim to speak for all Israelis? nope, just the overwhelming majority, including most of the left. This is a fact. Look at the numbers, the polls, the voting trends.

first you admit that you are aware of the removal of stated "Settlements," etc. but then say that I should stop posting propaganda and stick to facts. So, you admit it fact but then call it propaganda? Make up your mind please. Fact is, they have been removed so it is NOT propaganda. A MILE BEGINS WITH AN INCH.

 

[ninjacat]

I don't find your language very reassuring. I generally don't agree with R18 either, but a 'totally repulsive human being'. Please. Spare us the displeasure of your crass, nasty dehumanising insults. Thanks.

How dare you accuse me of "crass, nasty dehumanising insults" when you said nothing when this repulsive creature described the murder of a Palestinian child as a "good kill". Spare me your faux morals.

 

[moono]

Oh he's repulsive alright. He's the best recruitment material that the resistance has though, since the Fat Assassin went to confront his victims.


So, it turns out that, since Hamas largely ceased attacks on Israelis in August 2004, the IOF have killed no less than seven hundred and fifty six Palestinians.
http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm

Many of these have been 'assassinations', another word for 'extra-judicial killings' which is itself a term for murder and murder is a war crime.

Israel's Assassination Policy


International law prohibits without exception, the extra-judicial killing of protected persons. Israel's policy of assassination clearly amounts to intentional or wilful killing, which constitutes a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and is subject to international criminal prosecution.

http://www.electronicintifada.net/bytopic/

Rachamim;

a good kill

A war crime. You're a fascist.

 

[munkeeunit]

How dare you accuse me of "crass, nasty dehumanising insults" when you said nothing when this repulsive creature described the murder of a Palestinian child as a "good kill". Spare me your faux morals.

Ok. Better you put in context why you are calling someone a 'repulsive human being'. I, like most people, haven't got time to read every comment on these threads. So I rely on people to put their replies in context, and stumbled into this thread.

I've gathered that R18 has form, but I didn't see that one.

I am concerned that there is at least some anti-semitism lurking in the anti-war movement. I don't think it's in the least anti-semetic to criticise Israel for it's numerous ongoing crimes against humanity occurring in Palestine. I am concerned that some find it easier to throw insults at Jews and Israeli's, and at times know not what they say within the raw context of the holocaust still being in living memory.

Which still excuses nothing of what Israel is itself guilty of.

 

[moono]

Seems to me that the Zionist movement harbours many fascists. Their actions testify to that. When you reach the point of nausea and give them a virtual kick in the bollox they proclaim their 'jewishness' as a defence. Sod that. Spare some thought for Palestinian anti-Semitism. They're the Semites who are currently suffering.

 

[munkeeunit]

Yes, I agree, you'll also find that dozens (if not hundreds) of people scan quickly through these threads, without time to even begin reading them properly, and if they find harsh insults without context, those insults will stick in their mind, just like it did with me. Good thing Ninjacat corrected me, and those scanning these threads will hopefully see that correction and my acceptance of being corrected.

 

[moono]

Way cool. I might start including a link and post number to anything particularly offensive which resonates.

 

[munkeeunit]

Anything which makes it easier for those scanning these threads to know the context in which things have been said, will save us all a lot of misquotation and misunderstandings, as well as just making things clearer in general.

 

[ninjacat]

Ok. Better you put in context why you are calling someone a 'repulsive human being'. I, like most people, haven't got time to read every comment on these threads. So I rely on people to put their replies in context, and stumbled into this thread.

I've gathered that R18 has form, but I didn't see that one..

Then you must be blind!

 

[munkeeunit]

No, as I said, people barely have time to read these threads fully. If you want all the others scanning these threads to scan read your insults without context that's your choice, and read whatever they read into them, that's your choice, and your reputation on the line.

I've accepted your correction. Move on. Just try improving your writing style and abuse delivery. For your own benefit. That's all.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: OFF TOPIC.

Change the fucking record, you fraud.

WEAK

 

[moono]

So, Hamas is a 'terrorist organisation' to some, but not to others;

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has arrived in Russia ahead of talks with President Vladimir Putin in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.

Unlike Washington and Brussels, Moscow has refused to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4771285.stm

That means that Hamas is, or is not, 'officially' a 'terrorist organisation' depending on where you live.

Perhaps a stronger Russia would, in future, declare Israel a 'terrorist' government as it rightfully deserves and Zionism will, once again, be officially classified as 'racist' ?

The Russian bear is back - and this time it's gas-powered

· Petrodollars give Putin weight on world stage
· America is 'nervous and angry', say observers


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1774031,00.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, Hamas is a 'terrorist organisation' to some, but not to others;



That means that Hamas is, or is not, 'officially' a 'terrorist organisation' depending on where you live.

Perhaps a stronger Russia would, in future, declare Israel a 'terrorist' government as it rightfully deserves and Zionism will, once again, be officially classified as 'racist' ?

And given the bear's own problems with so-called "insurrectionary Islamists", their refusal to condemn is salutary.

That said, I don't doubt there's a large dollop of realpolitik to their decision.

 

[astronaut]

Unlike Washington and Brussels, Moscow has refused to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation...

Considering that Russia is probably the nastiest country in Europe, this doesn't surprise me at all.

Perhaps a stronger Russia would, in future, declare Israel a 'terrorist' government as it rightfully deserves and Zionism will, once again, be officially classified as 'racist' ?

Feeling nostalgia for the Cold War?

Ignoramus.

 

[cemertyone]

Considering that Russia is probably the nastiest country in Europe, this doesn't surprise me at all.
Feeling nostalgia for the Cold War?

Ignoramus.

Eh the Russian land mass is a bit bigger than that....

 

[astronaut]

Eh the Russian land mass is a bit bigger than that....

Considering that 80% of Russian citizens live west of the Urals, it is primarily a European state.

How about giving an appropriate response though?

To remind you of the point in hand:

Considering that Russia is probably the nastiest country in Europe, this doesn't surprise me at all.