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Terrorist Bombing Plot: Have the police found anything yet?

laptopProbably more [IMG said:
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....

* Sets financial advisor trap outside front door *
How Freudian was that!! :eek:

*Goes to check trap ... finds the nights catch is three accountants, a financial advisor and a junior solicitor ... * :D
 
editor said:
I'm imagine the police - after their woeful recent cock ups - are going to have to be very, very careful on this one, so I can't see them rushing to produce the evidence just to please the media. And if they have fucked up again, all hell might break lose.
That's my impression as well.
 
Pawn said:
havnt they found blast craters an residue of chemicals in the woods as well ?
Dunno. First I've heard of it.

The Beeb story seems to be based on a leak from one detective keen to show that the searches have been successful. Perhaps there have been other leaks that I haven't read about.
 
JHE said:
The Beeb story seems to be based on a leak from one detective keen to show that the searches have been successful.
Probably one comment from one search officer, maybe based on direct knowledge but probably based on what his mate told who, who was told by his mate, who actually found it or something. And probably all because a reporter / kid hannging around saw something large being brought out to a van and started asking everyone they could find what it was / might be.

Until it is an official release originating from someone involved with the investigation do not treat it as gospel. It could be anything, something or nothing.
 
Prefade said:
Not necessarily the full story of course but an interesting exercise in applying proper science to some of the more outlandish claims that were being made.
Interesting article - as have their previous articles in relation to other plans / alleged plans. But (and it is a fatal "but") they don't know what the ACTUAL plan was any more than we do. I know enough about chemistry (BSc in Chemistry and Biochemistry before any gobshites turn up) to know that there ARE a variety of combinations of things which can make explosive compounds and that this is rarely as simple as just mixing two things together and voila. But equally I know that there are other ways of doing things which COULD be made doable in an aircraft. Until we know exactly what the plan was meant to be we cannot dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

To be fair, the Register does not usually do that. But. because it has a generally questioning tone which fits the needs of those in terror threat denial they tend to forget about the qualifiers which are applied and start taking it as stated "fact" that "the plan" was "impossible".
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5265182.stm

Terror police find 'martyr tapes'

Police investigating an alleged plot to bring down airliners have found several martyrdom videos in the course of their searches, the BBC has learned.

Unofficial police sources said the recordings - discovered on laptop computers - appear to have been made by some of the suspects being questioned.​
 
detective-boy said:
Interesting article - as have their previous articles in relation to other plans / alleged plans. But (and it is a fatal "but") they don't know what the ACTUAL plan was any more than we do. I know enough about chemistry (BSc in Chemistry and Biochemistry before any gobshites turn up) to know that there ARE a variety of combinations of things which can make explosive compounds and that this is rarely as simple as just mixing two things together and voila. But equally I know that there are other ways of doing things which COULD be made doable in an aircraft. Until we know exactly what the plan was meant to be we cannot dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

To be fair, the Register does not usually do that. But. because it has a generally questioning tone which fits the needs of those in terror threat denial they tend to forget about the qualifiers which are applied and start taking it as stated "fact" that "the plan" was "impossible".



but at the moment whatever the police wants the police gets..... because the government are fucking spineless,
 
detective-boy said:
I know enough about chemistry (BSc in Chemistry and Biochemistry before any gobshites turn up) to know that there ARE a variety of combinations of things which can make explosive compounds and that this is rarely as simple as just mixing two things together and voila. But equally I know that there are other ways of doing things which COULD be made doable in an aircraft. Until we know exactly what the plan was meant to be we cannot dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

Trying to be very careful here:

  • One weakness of the Register article was that it was about the "binary hypothesis" - which as far as I can see is the invention of journalists whose knowledge of chemistry extends as far as... not knowing why popcorn pops. Did I miss a leak from official sources that suggested it?
  • Another is that, inexplicably (unless it's a diversion) they focus on TATP which - being a white fluffy crystalline solid - does not fit the leaked details (liquid, peroxide). They're following the other hacks who, as I said earlier, looked up "peroxide" in their own paper's archive morgue, filtered out the stories with "blonde" in the headline, and proceeded as if "peroxide" was a... well... a stuff.
  • I'm not going to name the substance that does fit the leaks, which is available, readymade, retail :eek:

detective-boy said:
To be fair, the Register does not usually do that. But. because it has a generally questioning tone which fits the needs of those in terror threat denial they tend to forget about the qualifiers which are applied and start taking it as stated "fact" that "the plan" was "impossible".

It's not really their fault if people quote them who don't know how to read the Register, or who don't know how to read :(
 
detective-boy said:
Please link to any official police media release on any ongoing investigation to prove your point ...
'mass murder on an unimaginable scale'

No plane tickets...no passports.

you were saying?
 
DexterTCN said:
No plane tickets...no passports.
Please expand on this cryptic little comment.

Are you claiming that the alleged would-be bombers (a) lacked passports and (b) lacked both plane tickets and any convenient means of getting plane tickets? If that is what you believe, please explain how you have come to this conclusion.
 
TonkaToy said:
Some of the suspects have recorded martyr tapes.

Says a cop who went for a beer with someone whose nephew was looking at the hard disks.


Probably.


And... a major contempt of court...
 
laptop said:
Trying to be very careful here:


I'm not going to name the substance that does fit the leaks, which is available, readymade, retail :eek:

well wiki seems to have been updated already.
 
Ninjaboy said:
but at the moment whatever the police wants the police gets..... because the government are fucking spineless,

Perhaps they're just taking their duty to protect citizens seriously?
 
DexterTCN said:
'mass murder on an unimaginable scale'

No plane tickets...no passports.

you were saying?

You don't need a passport to get on an internal UK flight.

You can easily buy a ticket online and just turn up with your non-passport ID or buy one on the day.

If you were able to crash a plane over any UK airport just after take-off the loss of life would be, at the very least, not good.
 
DexterTCN said:
'mass murder on an unimaginable scale'

No plane tickets...no passports.

you were saying?
What I was saying, if you bothered to actually read the sequence of posts rather than just spouting some knee-jerk bollocks, was that the police do not routinely release a blow by blow account of the evidence they have found to the media just to dispel speculation that "it's another Forest Gate". And I was asking for links to examples of where they had done so.

Which you have clearly not done. The comment you quote, which was used by the Deputy Commissioner the day after the arrests, is NOT a list of the evidence they have found. It is a description of the alleged plan. It is, arguably, an accurate description of the alleged plan. If / When it reaches Court then I will guarantee it is in prosecuting counsel's opening speech. I think the phraseology was unnecessarily emotive and I have posted to that effect before.

But what it is NOT is an example of the police releasing details of what they had found to demonstrate to the public that there were real grounds for suspicion. Which is what treefrogs initial question, and laptops subsequent explanation, had been about.

But, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of another opportunity to demonstrate your prejudices.
 
Cobbles said:
Perhaps they're just taking their duty to protect citizens seriously?
Somewhat bizarrely, on another thread a poster argued long and hard that there was no such duty to positively protect citizens (or, at least, it was not a very strong duty).

The argument was that a State has a duty not to interfere with the rights of citizens itself (i.e. a negative duty) and that this was absolutely paramount, to the point where, short of actions after criminal conviction, the State could not justify interfering with the liberty of one citizen to protect the life of another.
 
Cobbles said:
You don't need a passport to get on an internal UK flight.
To be fair, DexterTCN was probably referring to the fact that the alleged plan was to attack planes heading for America, for which you would need a passport.

I'd be very surprised if NONE of the 23 plus suspects had passports. No report I have seen has said that. And, even if that were the case, I would also be very surprised if the police would have been able to reliably rule out a change of plan to attack domestic flights at short notice if they suddenly found out their plan had been discovered (which would appear to have been the fear, due to actions taken in Pakistan).
 
There is a legitimate debate there though, as you could easily illustrate, by imagining someone using the same argument (the public must be protected at all costs) for genocidal solutions to the problem of Islamic terrorism.

Most people would not accept the argument if it were used to justify genocide, so there is also clearly a question of what degree of injustice and hence damage to a society is justified by the need to protect citizens against the risk of injury from terrorist activity.
 
One of the things that disgusts me most about our government's cynical spin around cases of this kind is that they seem not to be thinking about the damage done to society by this kind of stuff at all, because they're far too excited by the potential political capital to be gained by exploiting such cases.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
There is a legitimate debate there though.
Of course there is. It's sort of being played out (somewhat painfully) in the Government / Court squabble over control orders.

Government makes a judgement that preventative detention is a justifiable interference, to protect others. Court says no.

Government tries again and says, OK, if we can't do that, what about house arrest type stuff. Court says no.

At some point a position will be reached where the Courts agree an appropriate balance has been struck and that there are appropriate safeguards for the individual (i.e. they have an opportunity to know, and test, the grounds on which the restrictions are based).

But this debate is focused on the right to (physical) liberty - there are infringements of lots of other rights (such as privacy) that the same balance is struck in relation to, and more interference in these "lesser" rights, that has less of an impact on the individual than interference with "higher" rights (life, torture, liberty) is usually justifiable and accepted.

Trouble is, like most things, it is a judgment call, not a black and white decision. So there will ALWAYS be debate about whether it is "right" or not.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
One of the things that disgusts me most about our government's cynical spin around cases of this kind
I am surprised this government has not long since realised that it's incessant spin on everything is one of it's major Achille's heels. Unfortunately, in this area, there is a direct and immediate effect on real-life and people's lives (and deaths).
 
Well with the usual caviets. Radio 5 Live were reporting last night that a Police source told the BBC marta martadem videos allegedly showing some of the suspects had been found.

Of course as Laptop remarks, could just be a Police employee close to but not encesarily involved directly in the investigation. . Hears something but not all of it. Gives their journo mate a titbit to keep their symbiotic relationship going.

I hate the drip drop of infromation that so often proves to be crap later on. A full report when there's more to know would be preferable. But that would be boring and we couldn't talk about the explosive properties of Radox shower gell.
 
Here's another aspect of the problem:
At what point do actions abroad pollute British justice, even if in the short-term they may protect British security?

Reports from Pakistan suggest that much of the intelligence that led to the raids came from that country and that some of it may have been obtained in ways entirely unacceptable here. In particular Rashid Rauf, a British citizen said to be a prime source of information leading to last week's arrests, has been held without access to full consular or legal assistance. Disturbing reports in Pakistani papers that he had "broken" under interrogation have been echoed by local human rights bodies. The Guardian has quoted one, Asma Jehangir, of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who has no doubt about the meaning of broken. "I don't deduce, I know - torture," she said. "There is simply no doubt about that, no doubt at all." If this is shown to be the case, the prospect of securing convictions in this country on his evidence will be complicated. In 2004 the Court of Appeal ruled - feebly - that evidence obtained using torture would be admissable as long as Britain had not "procured or connived" at it. The law lords rightly dismissed this in December last year, though they disagreed about whether the bar should be the simple "risk" or "probability" of torture.

But none of this stops governments acquiescing in torture to acquire information, rather than secure convictions, as British as well as American practice has shown. It has been outsourced to less squeamish countries and denied through redefinition: but it is still torture and still illegal.
source

Let's take a look at one that has already been tried in court. The 'Ricin' plot. The head of MI5 actually used this at one point to justify using evidence gained under torture
She points to information from Algerian agencies who questioned a man called Mohammed Meguerba. The evidence led to a raid on a London flat and the eventual uncovering of the so-called ricin plot.

There has been press speculation that Meguerba was tortured.

But Ms Manningham-Buller says: "In those circumstances, no inquiries were made of Algerian liaison about the precise circumstances that attended their questioning of Meguerba.

"In any event, questioning of Algerian liaison about their methods of questioning detainees would almost certainly have been rebuffed and at the same time would have damaged the relationship to the detriment of our ability to counter international terrorism."
source

Which given what happened when the case went to court, doesn't seem to me much of a recommendation. Nor were the Law Lords impressed by her arguments when they ruled torture evidence inadmissable shortly afterwards.

See for example the Register's article. Clarke Calls for ID Cards After Imagining Huge Poison Terror Ring
 
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